• Replacement for uBlock Origin?

    From Stan Brown@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 01:24:32 2025
    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome
    incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?

    --
    After using my real address in 37 years of Usenet articles,
    I am now reluctantly posting a fake address because of the
    large number of sites scraping Usenet articles without
    permission and putting them on their own pretend forum sites.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From s|b@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 03:33:32 2025
    Reply-To: sb.nospam@belgacom.net

    On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 16:30:46 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

    If you don't want to switch browser, I think you'll have to look at filtering outside of the browser (local proxy, or DNS block).

    It seems several people are switching to Firefox because of this.

    --
    s|b

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: XXII (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From mick@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 05:18:50 2025
    It happens that s|b formulated :
    On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 16:30:46 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

    If you don't want to switch browser, I think you'll have to look at
    filtering outside of the browser (local proxy, or DNS block).

    It seems several people are switching to Firefox because of this.

    I use Firefox with ublock origin 99% of the time as it stops most
    unwanted things.
    I also use Brave as I find that will stop the odd thing that Firefox
    does not, it is good for Youtube. I Just don't like the GUI as much as Firefox, focus does not go to a new tab when opening a new link and
    those damn tabs are on top and cannot be moved.

    --
    mick

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From VanguardLH@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 05:32:06 2025
    Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

    Stan Brown <someone@example.com> wrote:

    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome
    incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?

    uBlock Origin *Lite* (Manifest v3 support) https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ublock-origin-lite/ddkjiahejlhfcafbddmgiahcphecmpfh

    Adguard Adblocker https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/adguard-adblocker/pdffkfellgipmhklpdmokmckkkfcopbh

    Privacy Badger https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/privacy-badger/mkejgcgkdlddbggjhhflekkondicpnop

    These tend to overlap a lot, but each often catches something the others didn't. I had all 3 in Edge Chromium, but eventually reduced to just
    Adguard (that comes bundled with Edge). uBO Lite was too crippled.
    Adguard has a log you can view to see what got blocked, or converted to different rule types. Using that log lets you determine what additional
    user rules you can add to Adguard. uBO Lite does not have a log or
    Expert Mode, and, as I recall, also did not let you add user rules. uBO
    Lite does have a element picker to let you add rules to blocks those,
    like a banner, but I quit using that a long time ago even when using the original uBO (MV2) since sites kept changing the element's ID that you
    used in a rule to block that element. Old element rules became defunct.
    Google does that with their stupid "you should switch to Chrome" crap
    when you visit their web sites with a non-Chrome web browser. You can
    block that element for a short time, and then it comes back when Google
    changes the element ID upon which your rule was defined.

    While Brave, a Chromium variant, blocks pings (to track on what
    hyperlinked you clicked), Edge, Chrome, and other Chromium variants do
    not. So I added:

    Ping Blocker https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ping-blocker/jkpocifanmihboebfhigkjcdihgfcdnb

    It does not have its own logger of what it blocked. You go into Dev
    Tools, Network, to see what pings (hyperlink auditing), beacons, and
    CSPs (reporting Content Security Policy violations; see https://github.com/gorhill/ublock/wiki/Dashboard:-Settings) got blocked
    by Ping Blocker. uBO (MV2) had options to block CSPs, and hyperlink
    auditing, but not uBO Lite (MV3). I think Brave would block all those,
    too, but only in strict mode.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: Usenet Elder (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Stan Brown@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 08:14:27 2025
    On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 14:32:06 -0500, VanguardLH wrote:

    Stan Brown <someone@example.com> wrote:

    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?

    uBlock Origin *Lite* (Manifest v3 support) https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ublock-origin-lite/ddkjiahejlhfcafbddmgiahcphecmpfh

    See below.

    Privacy Badger https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/privacy-badger/mkejgcgkdlddbggjhhflekkondicpnop

    I already have Privacy Badger in both Chrome and Firefox. Didn't know
    it had anything to do with blocking ads (if that's what you're
    implying).

    uBO Lite does not have a log or
    Expert Mode, and, as I recall, also did not let you add user rules. uBO
    Lite does have a element picker to let you add rules to blocks those,
    like a banner, but I quit using that a long time ago even when using the original uBO (MV2) since sites kept changing the element's ID that you
    used in a rule to block that element. Old element rules became defunct. Google does that with their stupid "you should switch to Chrome" crap
    when you visit their web sites with a non-Chrome web browser. You can
    block that element for a short time, and then it comes back when Google changes the element ID upon which your rule was defined.

    I knew of uBO Lite, but had heard it was pretty fairly crippled. I
    should have tried it before I posted. After I installed it, it got
    rid of the page of Sponsored Results in Startpage search results, and
    the annoying ads in How-To Geek. If it's crippled, I don't
    immediately see it failing to do anything I would expect. I was
    probably using uBO with mostly default settings.

    --
    After using my real address in 37 years of Usenet articles,
    I am now reluctantly posting a fake address because of the
    large number of sites scraping Usenet articles without
    permission and putting them on their own pretend forum sites.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Jim the Geordie@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 08:57:58 2025
    On 13/07/2025 18:33, s|b wrote:
    On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 16:30:46 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

    If you don't want to switch browser, I think you'll have to look at
    filtering outside of the browser (local proxy, or DNS block).

    It seems several people are switching to Firefox because of this.

    It used to be good - now very slow.
    I'm on Opera, but quite like Brave.
    Both will sync to androids.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From John Doe@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 12:31:44 2025
    Subject: Re: Google is run by JEWS! Replacement for uBlock Origin? (was: Replacement for uBlock Origin?)

    Jews are Satan!

    www.goyimtv.com

    Put those Romans UP!


    O/ O/ O/

    Seig Heil!

    Heil Hitler!!



    On Jul 13, 2025 at 3:32:06 PM EDT, "VanguardLH" <V@nguard.LH> wrote:

    Stan Brown <someone@example.com> wrote:

    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome
    incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?

    uBlock Origin *Lite* (Manifest v3 support) https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ublock-origin-lite/ddkjiahejlhfcafbddmgiahcphecmpfh

    Adguard Adblocker https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/adguard-adblocker/pdffkfellgipmhklpdmokmckkkfcopbh

    Privacy Badger https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/privacy-badger/mkejgcgkdlddbggjhhflekkondicpnop

    These tend to overlap a lot, but each often catches something the others didn't. I had all 3 in Edge Chromium, but eventually reduced to just
    Adguard (that comes bundled with Edge). uBO Lite was too crippled.
    Adguard has a log you can view to see what got blocked, or converted to different rule types. Using that log lets you determine what additional
    user rules you can add to Adguard. uBO Lite does not have a log or
    Expert Mode, and, as I recall, also did not let you add user rules. uBO
    Lite does have a element picker to let you add rules to blocks those,
    like a banner, but I quit using that a long time ago even when using the original uBO (MV2) since sites kept changing the element's ID that you
    used in a rule to block that element. Old element rules became defunct. Google does that with their stupid "you should switch to Chrome" crap
    when you visit their web sites with a non-Chrome web browser. You can
    block that element for a short time, and then it comes back when Google changes the element ID upon which your rule was defined.

    While Brave, a Chromium variant, blocks pings (to track on what
    hyperlinked you clicked), Edge, Chrome, and other Chromium variants do
    not. So I added:

    Ping Blocker https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/ping-blocker/jkpocifanmihboebfhigkjcdihgfcdnb

    It does not have its own logger of what it blocked. You go into Dev
    Tools, Network, to see what pings (hyperlink auditing), beacons, and
    CSPs (reporting Content Security Policy violations; see https://github.com/gorhill/ublock/wiki/Dashboard:-Settings) got blocked
    by Ping Blocker. uBO (MV2) had options to block CSPs, and hyperlink auditing, but not uBO Lite (MV3). I think Brave would block all those,
    too, but only in strict mode.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: NewsgroupDirect (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From wasbit@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 18:41:40 2025
    On 14/07/2025 05:15, T wrote:
    On 7/13/25 8:24 AM, Stan Brown wrote:
    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome
    incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?



    Hi Stan,

    Both Chrome and Edge are terrible spyware to
    start with.

    Best if you switch to Brave Browser:
    https://brave.com

    it has automatic ad blocking
    no spying
    uses the same rendering engine that Chrome uses (Blink)
    is considered grandparent safe
    has a great community forum

    If it works in Chrome, it will work in Brave.
    (It is a "Blink" thing.)

    You can import all your chrome stuff into it too.
    Even if you do not care about being spied on, Brave
    is faster than Chrome as it not wasting time sending
    your stuff to others.


    Thanks but it needs Windows 10 or 11 unless you download the older
    compatible version
    - https://archive.org/details/brave-browser-for-windows-8.1-and-7

    IIRC there is no option to install it anywhere other than the OS drive/partition which is normally C: in Windows.



    --
    Regards
    wasbit

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From s|b@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 22:20:46 2025
    Reply-To: sb.nospam@belgacom.net

    On Sun, 13 Jul 2025 23:57:58 +0100, Jim the Geordie wrote:

    It used to be good - now very slow.
    I'm on Opera, but quite like Brave.
    Both will sync to androids.

    Been using Fx since Phoenix 0.1. Guess I got used to the slow.

    --
    s|b

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: XXII (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From s|b@3:633/280.2 to All on Mon Jul 14 22:22:37 2025
    Reply-To: sb.nospam@belgacom.net

    On Mon, 14 Jul 2025 00:49:23 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    A good hosts file works with everything, but of course you don't get features like logs.

    Pi-Hole. (-:

    --
    s|b

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: XXII (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From VanguardLH@3:633/280.2 to All on Tue Jul 15 00:06:17 2025
    Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:

    T wrote:

    Stan Brown wrote:

    Now that Google has finally carried out its plan to make Chrome
    incompatible with uBlock Origin, sites I used to read almost every
    day are now just about unusable with unwanted ads, especially video
    ads, and popups.

    Any recommendations for an ad blocker that still works in Chrome?

    ...
    Best if you switch to Brave Browser:
    https://brave.com
    ...

    Thanks but it needs Windows 10 or 11 unless you download the older compatible version
    - https://archive.org/details/brave-browser-for-windows-8.1-and-7

    IIRC there is no option to install it anywhere other than the OS drive/partition which is normally C: in Windows.

    Did not see an easy-to-find web page at brave.com that specified system requirements. Did a search on "brave system requirements" which came up
    with:

    https://community.brave.com/t/system-requirements/617473

    a forum thread, where someone said to look at:

    https://support.brave.com/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave

    Yet, when trying to visit there, that site has no certificate (support.brave.app sent an invalid response, ERR_SSL_PROTOCOL_ERROR),
    and why an https connection fails. I tried http:// instead, but their
    server automatically switches me to https://. Their brave.app doesn't
    have a site certificate, so an https connection fails.

    Seemed strange until I looked at the address bar in the web browser to
    notice I had been redirected to:

    https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave
    ^^^
    not .com TLD ----------'

    I figured I'd have to find Brave's help page instead of use a URL posted
    in their forum. Went to brave.com, scrolled way down, and clicked on
    "Help center". That hyperlink points to:

    https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us

    Not to brave.com. Looks like they might in the process of changing from
    ..com to .app, but forgot to get a new site certificate.

    To check if was not some screw up on my end in how my web browser is configured, I had SSL Labs (https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/) test
    their site cert. There are 14 IP addresses for brave.app (there are 12
    for brave.com), and each test took a very long to complete. The testing
    was so extremely slow that I gave up. I'll let someone else report
    their site cert screw up.

    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"? Even if Brave
    does not support prior versions of Windows, the OP posted in the Windows
    10 and 11 newsgroups. If the criteria you mention were true, how does
    it impact the OP?

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: Usenet Elder (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Simon@3:633/280.2 to All on Tue Jul 15 07:23:04 2025
    On 14/07/2025 15:06, VanguardLH wrote:
    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"?


    <https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave>





    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: To protect and to server (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From wasbit@3:633/280.2 to All on Tue Jul 15 17:31:19 2025
    On 14/07/2025 15:06, VanguardLH wrote:
    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
    snip <

    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"? Even if Brave
    does not support prior versions of Windows, the OP posted in the Windows
    10 and 11 newsgroups. If the criteria you mention were true, how does
    it impact the OP?


    From the main page link provided by T I found

    What are the system requirements to install Brave?
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave

    Sunsetting support for Windows 7 and 8/8.1
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/11197967945613-Sunsetting-support-for-Windows-7-and-8-8-1


    It doesn't impact the OP. It was information for other readers.

    --
    Regards
    wasbit

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Paul@3:633/280.2 to All on Tue Jul 15 19:24:07 2025
    On Tue, 7/15/2025 3:31 AM, wasbit wrote:
    On 14/07/2025 15:06, VanguardLH wrote:
    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
    snip <

    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"? Even if Brave
    does not support prior versions of Windows, the OP posted in the Windows
    10 and 11 newsgroups. If the criteria you mention were true, how does
    it impact the OP?


    From the main page link provided by T I found

    What are the system requirements to install Brave?
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave

    Sunsetting support for Windows 7 and 8/8.1
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/11197967945613-Sunsetting-support-for-Windows-7-and-8-8-1


    It doesn't impact the OP. It was information for other readers.


    It's not particularly a Brave decision, it's because the browser
    is descended from Chromium materials, and Chromium/Chrome stopped
    supporting the older OSes.

    The SSE3 hardware support requirement, might be so the devs have
    a lazy way of copying blocks of memory. At one time, this would have
    meant an SSE2 hardware support requirement.

    Paul

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From VanguardLH@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Jul 16 13:44:28 2025
    Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:

    VanguardLH wrote:

    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
    snip <

    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"? Even if Brave
    does not support prior versions of Windows, the OP posted in the Windows
    10 and 11 newsgroups. If the criteria you mention were true, how does
    it impact the OP?

    From the main page link provided by T I found

    What are the system requirements to install Brave?
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave

    Yesterday I could not get to any *.brave.app web page. Something was
    wrong or missing for their site cert at their .app TLD. Their .com had
    a proper site cert, but their site cert was missing at their .app
    domain, and their server refused http connections. Their .app domain is working today, so they fixed whatever was momentarily wrong.

    Sunsetting support for Windows 7 and 8/8.1
    - https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/11197967945613-Sunsetting-support-for-Windows-7-and-8-8-1

    It doesn't impact the OP. It was information for other readers.

    But other web browsers (e.g., Firefox) often have a cutoff on OS version
    at some version of their program. They move forward to something
    required from a newer OS version, so users have to decide to upgrade
    their OS, or stick with an old version of the program.

    With Firefox, for example, to run on Windows 7 or 8 means you're stuck
    back to Firefox 115 as the latest version that runs on that OS version.

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-users-windows-7-8-and-81-moving-extended-support

    Same for the Brave web browser. Their Github project site has downloads
    for older versions of Brave, but I didn't see an easy lookup table where
    you could pick the OS version to find out what was the latest version of
    Brave that ran on that OS version. Tis probably the same for every web
    browser that ever existed: old versions can only support a range of OS versions, and eventually there is too much change in later OS versions
    to properly support running older versions. Same for video drivers, and
    most software.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: Usenet Elder (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From Paul@3:633/280.2 to All on Wed Jul 16 18:51:18 2025
    On Tue, 7/15/2025 11:44 PM, VanguardLH wrote:
    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:

    VanguardLH wrote:

    wasbit <wasbit@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote:
    snip <

    Where did you see that Brave "needs Windows 10 or 11"? Even if Brave
    does not support prior versions of Windows, the OP posted in the Windows >>> 10 and 11 newsgroups. If the criteria you mention were true, how does
    it impact the OP?

    From the main page link provided by T I found

    What are the system requirements to install Brave?
    -
    https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/360021357112-What-are-the-system-requirements-to-install-Brave

    Yesterday I could not get to any *.brave.app web page. Something was
    wrong or missing for their site cert at their .app TLD. Their .com had
    a proper site cert, but their site cert was missing at their .app
    domain, and their server refused http connections. Their .app domain is working today, so they fixed whatever was momentarily wrong.

    Sunsetting support for Windows 7 and 8/8.1
    -
    https://support.brave.app/hc/en-us/articles/11197967945613-Sunsetting-support-for-Windows-7-and-8-8-1

    It doesn't impact the OP. It was information for other readers.

    But other web browsers (e.g., Firefox) often have a cutoff on OS version
    at some version of their program. They move forward to something
    required from a newer OS version, so users have to decide to upgrade
    their OS, or stick with an old version of the program.

    With Firefox, for example, to run on Windows 7 or 8 means you're stuck
    back to Firefox 115 as the latest version that runs on that OS version.

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-users-windows-7-8-and-81-moving-extended-support

    Same for the Brave web browser. Their Github project site has downloads
    for older versions of Brave, but I didn't see an easy lookup table where
    you could pick the OS version to find out what was the latest version of Brave that ran on that OS version. Tis probably the same for every web browser that ever existed: old versions can only support a range of OS versions, and eventually there is too much change in later OS versions
    to properly support running older versions. Same for video drivers, and
    most software.


    As long as the Brave version tracking, uses the Chromium release number,
    that should be sufficient for a user to track whether the Chromium release number is out-of-range for the OS.

    The thing about Firefox 115, is it is frozen in terms of features,
    but if a CVE showed up, the next 115 release (can't last forever!)
    could have the CVE fix in it. This maintains the security of the
    product. Similarly, the certificates the product ships with, the latest certificates can be put in the certificate store.

    For Brave to continue offering a W7 download, they are not likely to be actively maintaining that code base, adding CVEs for you or correcting
    the certificate store. It means the Brave is about as much good to an
    old OS user, as a copy of Chromium with a matching version number. The Javascript is likely out of date, and the web sites will be giving
    the "old browser" response they like so much.

    Paul

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)
  • From VanguardLH@3:633/280.2 to All on Thu Jul 17 03:06:07 2025
    Keywords: VanguardLH,VLH

    Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

    The thing about Firefox 115, is it is frozen in terms of features,
    but if a CVE showed up, the next 115 release (can't last forever!)
    could have the CVE fix in it. This maintains the security of the
    product. Similarly, the certificates the product ships with, the latest certificates can be put in the certificate store.

    Now that you mention certificates, a new version was needed with a new
    internal root cert that was used to validate extensions, and apparently
    perform some validation during rendering of signed content. This was
    not a cert stored in Firefox's private cert store. It was integral and
    hidden within the product. If you didn't update to get the new cert,
    Mozilla said stuff would stop working in Firefox, and users confirmed it
    (well, that extensions got disabled). Mozilla provided no means to
    update the internal cert in a currently installed instance of Firefox.
    You have to get the new version.

    https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/root-certificate-expiration

    So, besides old versions of the web browser not working well with newer versions of the OS, functionality could simply cease in the old
    versions, like Firefox's self-expiring internal/root certificate. Other
    web browsers would lose compatibility with newer OS versions, but
    Firefox would also kill any installed extensions. Oh great.

    --- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
    * Origin: Usenet Elder (3:633/280.2@fidonet)