On 04 Sep 2025 at 07:49a, scarface pondered and said...

"Unix" from the network. But that time has passed and that place no longer exists, so it's unclear what lessons are still applicable.

Yeh. I guess the current computing model of today is more that everyone has a high powered computer in their pocket these days. So many people I know don't have a desktop anymore.

Yeah. I think that one of the things that's kind of interesting
about this, and perhaps it does tie back to the Plan 9 way of
thinking about things, is that you have a wildly different types
of machines fulfilling very different roles. Trying to run the
same system on all of those is, perhaps, not the best way to go
about things. We see Linux running on everything from watches and
small embedded devices to the largest supercomputers in the world;
maybe that's not the way we ought to be going about things.

1. A single unified network protocol for access resources in a
file-like manner,
2. Per-process(group) mutable namespaces for resources,
3. The security model.

Thank you very much. I too like the idea of everything is a file, and
that the unix network model is kinda bolted on to act like a file, but with very different interfaces.

Yeah. Sockets were a poor abstraction on top of the existing
Unix model.

For context I have a hobby operating system, and I like hearing what others find good in less common systems.

Cool!

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tenser wrote to Digital Man <=-

MIT used to write the root password for the Athena clusters on
the wall, because they got sick of precocious undergrads breaking
root all the time. It removed the incentive, and abuse went way
down

I remember a story about a University computer system with a
CRASH-SYSTEM command that crashed the system. Same idea, take the elite
aspect away from taking down the system (which apparently happened by
undergrads hoping for extensions on papers)

I thought it was in the New Hacker's Dictionary (great read, BTW) but
can't find it.



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scarface wrote to tenser <=-

"Unix" from the network. But that time has passed and that place no longer exists, so it's unclear what lessons are still applicable.

Yeh. I guess the current computing model of today is more that everyone has a high powered computer in their pocket these days. So many people
I know don't have a desktop anymore. might have a laptop if working in tech. some still enjoy tinkering with all sorts of technology. I even
work with someone whos only device is their work laptop, which they
leave at work. some parts of me envy that as I sometimes think I'm
_too_ attached to technology lol

Yeah, for years it went from mainframes to midrange computers, to client/server, to powerful desktop apps, to web apps, and now mobile.

I worked at a firm with a HUGE server room, probably 60 4-post racks if
not more. If you looked closely at the raised floor, you'd see outlines
where the AS/400s once stood. We had one AS/400 left, and a graveyard
shift of people who "managed" the AS/400 and the servers at night. I
think they mostly just checked to make sure the blinkenlightz was
blinken.

Don't look too closely, though - the server room floor hadn't been
cleaned in as many years, and the dust dinosaurs under floor were
impressive. I was trying to hire a firm to come in and vacuum under the
floor tiles, take the tiles out individually and scrub them.

Thankfully, my tenure there came to an end quickly after the directive
to clean the server room floors - the people that clean raised floors
seem to know their time has come, and bill like each job could be their
last.

Thank you very much. I too like the idea of everything is a file, and
that the unix network model is kinda bolted on to act like a file, but with very different interfaces. For context I have a hobby operating system, and I like hearing what others find good in less common
systems.

I loved the UNIX idea that everything is a file, like routing the output
of a tar command to /dev/tape. With BASH, you could kit together lots of
tools to get what you needed to get done.





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tenser wrote to Digital Man <=-

Plan 9 divided the network into three categories of machines:

1. Terminals, which were the computers you sit in front of and
2. CPU servers, which provide bulk compute, or specialized services
3. File servers, which provide bulk storage. These are standalone,

This take me back to diskless workstations, NFS/NIS, bootp and Sun
workstations...

During COVID, I got to see a lot of people's home computing
environments remotely. Mostly Mac, but one engineer we had was running
Plan9 at home. I should have taken a better look at his setup. I think
the idea of shareable CPU servers was what attracted him to it, he did
a lot of work with Big Data.



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On 04 Sep 2025 at 08:10a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

tenser wrote to Digital Man <=-

Plan 9 divided the network into three categories of machines:

1. Terminals, which were the computers you sit in front of and
2. CPU servers, which provide bulk compute, or specialized services 3. File servers, which provide bulk storage. These are standalone,

This take me back to diskless workstations, NFS/NIS, bootp and Sun
workstations...

During COVID, I got to see a lot of people's home computing
environments remotely. Mostly Mac, but one engineer we had was running
Plan9 at home. I should have taken a better look at his setup. I think
the idea of shareable CPU servers was what attracted him to it, he did
a lot of work with Big Data.

Oh really? Wow, that's extremely rare. His name isn't John, is it?

I still run it at home, but I'm the only user. It runs DNS+DHCP for
our little home network.

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Re: Re: linux permissions issue
By: poindexter FORTRAN to tenser on Thu Sep 04 2025 08:10 am

This take me back to diskless workstations, NFS/NIS, bootp and Sun workstations...

At first, I read that as "dickless" workstations, and I was wondering what a dickless workstation would be.. :P

Nightfox
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At first, I read that as "dickless" workstations, and I was wondering what dickless workstation would be.. :P

One with 3 open drive bays. :)

... North East Breakfast: A cuppa coffee and a cigarette.

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I loved the UNIX idea that everything is a file, like routing the output of a tar command to /dev/tape. With BASH, you could kit together lots of tools to get what you needed to get done.

I love the power of bash/readline. I also like the quick and dirty raw power but not quite as raw as C you get with scripting. definately aimed towards a certain style of application chaining. bash, like most other things, I always find new things out all the time. Sometimes I haven't even learnt it before then forgot :D

... Press SPACEBAR once to abort, or twice to save changes

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On 05 Sep 2025 at 02:40p, scarface pondered and said...

I loved the UNIX idea that everything is a file, like routing the out of a tar command to /dev/tape. With BASH, you could kit together lots tools to get what you needed to get done.

I love the power of bash/readline. I also like the quick and dirty raw power but not quite as raw as C you get with scripting. definately aimed towards a certain style of application chaining. bash, like most other things, I always find new things out all the time. Sometimes I haven't even learnt it before then forgot :D

The bash/readline thing does not come from Unix, though. That has
its roots in DEC systems on 36-bit machines; specifically, TENEX/TOPS-20
(I guess TENEX was BBN, not DEC, but the point remains) and ITS (MIT).
The original erase character was '#', and "line kill" was '@', as on
Multics over a teletype; DEL for erase came from DEC terminals, and ^U/^W
and word-kill came from TENEX.

Command-line editing was not seen as a useful feature at Bell Labs; it
went against the ethos of the system, which prized simplicity over that
kind of interactive functionality. Unix was almost simplistic, and
certainly seen as austere.

In Plan 9, this was retained; the shell (`rc`) does not support command
line editing. But, critically, the window system (which also provides
windows running the shell) _does_: all text is editable, and one can
easily highlight and copy ("snarf") and "paste" text; so to edit a command, simply type it and use the window system to edit it before sending it to
the shell.

The window system also provided a "Hold" mode in which the user could
enter multi-line text. In a pinch, `cat` and hold mode in a window
made a serviceable text editor.

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tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Oh really? Wow, that's extremely rare. His name isn't John, is it?

No, but I'm imagining an OS with such a small user base that everyone's
on a first-name basis.

I suppose that's called OS/2. :)




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Nightfox wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

At first, I read that as "dickless" workstations, and I was wondering
what a dickless workstation would be.. :P

That was the unofficial name back then, back in the "The Network is the Computer" days.



... In England, Baseball is known as American Cricket.
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The bash/readline thing does not come from Unix, though. That has
its roots in DEC systems on 36-bit machines; specifically, TENEX/TOPS-20 (I guess TENEX was BBN, not DEC, but the point remains) and ITS (MIT).
The original erase character was '#', and "line kill" was '@', as on Multics over a teletype; DEL for erase came from DEC terminals, and ^U/^W and word-kill came from TENEX.

Oh cool, TIL! I have glazed over the contents of termios(3) which may have similar roots, or atleast built ontop of similar abstractions.

easily highlight and copy ("snarf") and "paste" text; so to edit a command, simply type it and use the window system to edit it before sending it to the shell.

now that sounds interesting. I've only seen a few screnshots of plan9 and an old video or two but not much. My friend actually has it up and running on his system.
So this editing thing. Would you hit some key to bring up a text window dialog, then enter your text, edit it and whatevs (using sam?), then send it ... anywhere, your printer, your rc, your email, a file. Or would you be in that application and have to manually copy text and then edit (ala how i use tmux actually) then edit it, then paste it back?

enter multi-line text. In a pinch, `cat` and hold mode in a window
made a serviceable text editor.

Yeh i can see how you could still do a lot with that.

Cheers for the enlightenment!

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On 05 Sep 2025 at 09:12a, poindexter FORTRAN pondered and said...

tenser wrote to poindexter FORTRAN <=-

Oh really? Wow, that's extremely rare. His name isn't John, is it?

No, but I'm imagining an OS with such a small user base that everyone's
on a first-name basis.

I mean, pretty much. :-D

I suppose that's called OS/2. :)

Hahaha...

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No, but I'm imagining an OS with such a small user base that everyone' on a first-name basis.

I mean, pretty much. :-D

I suppose that's called OS/2. :)

You leave me and Dale and Martha outta this!

Team OS/2!

Was still better than an OS that was out in the 90s. Used it for years.

... It's on that one, the 6th unlabeled floppy.

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Re: Re: linux permissions issue
By: Exodus to Tenser on Tue Sep 09 2025 03:46 pm

Team OS/2!

Was still better than an OS that was out in the 90s. Used it for years.

On my BBS machine, I have Linux Mint installed with the Xfce GUI environment. Currently I'm using an OS/2 style for the window manager for a retro vibe. :)

Nightfox
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Exodus wrote to Tenser <=-

Team OS/2!

Was still better than an OS that was out in the 90s. Used it for
years.

I jest so. I was a huge OS/2 fan in the '90s. Started out running 1.3
in an environment with AS/400s, a netware network and MS LAN MAN
servers. I had copies of Word and Excel for OS/2. Ran a dial-up WAN
with 16 modems on a 386. Later used OS/2 as my desktop when I managed
Novell networks and needed lots of DOS windows for administration
tools. A better DOS than DOS, indeed.

Inherited a LANTastic network from work that only worked on DOS, so I
ran the DOS drivers on the BBS, then created a MS-DOS VDM with the
LANtastic drivers for my first home network. Later, collapsed
everything (desktop and BBS) into a single box running OS/2 Warp.




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