• (tears) Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Sun Sep 6 12:27:14 2026
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 8 07:21:45 2026
    On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
    is down? This is the second day.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Nance@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 8 06:38:49 2026
    On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
    is down? This is the second day.

    On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
    " The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason
    Phrase "

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 8 11:42:38 2026
    In article <117oojp$2plj$1@dont-email.me>,
    Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
    is down? This is the second day.

    On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
    " The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason >Phrase "

    This is part of an ongoing issue that is being dealt with...

    
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 8 11:46:09 2026
    In article <117osbe$hvg$1@reader1.panix.com>,
    James Nicoll <jdnicoll@panix.com> wrote:
    In article <117oojp$2plj$1@dont-email.me>,
    Tony Nance <tnusenet17@gmail.com> wrote:
    On 9/8/26 3:21 AM, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Sun, 6 Sep 2026 12:27:14 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    What, nobody else has checked in to say jamesdavisnicoll.com
    is down? This is the second day.

    On the very small chance that it helps, one of my browsers says
    " The server at jamesdavisnicoll.com sent back an error: 522 No Reason >>Phrase "

    This is part of an ongoing issue that is being dealt with...

    
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    And right now, it is up.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 8 08:27:34 2026
    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 9 02:31:04 2026
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 11:46:09 -0000 (UTC), James Nicoll wrote:

    And right now, it is up.

    Something to listen to while waiting/pondering/musing ... <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPVBRgxSvLg>.

    ?Up ... and down ...?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 07:46:00 2026
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
    wars these days.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 12:02:22 2026
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
    wars these days.

    Androgyny likely dates back to before Sodom and Gomorrah.

    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings, and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56463/56463-h/56463-h.htm#Page_223>

    A clinical treatment of androgyny is found in the Androgyny chapter of
    SEXUAL ANOMALIES AND PERVERSIONS: PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
    AND TREATMENT by Magnus Hirsfeld (1937, posthumous).

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 07:40:32 2026
    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
    wars these days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.
    Probably less than !% of the populace are gender variant and
    the only Transgender ideology is that the the people who are in
    discomfort because of anatomical disparities should be given palliative
    care.
    The dominate side of the discussion comes from the so-Called
    Christian Right who reject the idea that transgenderism points to the
    existence of the Spirit or even perhaps a soul generated beyond the
    physical.
    It has been about 60 years since I read the story mentioned.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 08:01:05 2026
    On 9/15/26 05:02, Don wrote:
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
    wars these days.

    Androgyny likely dates back to before Sodom and Gomorrah.

    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings, and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    <https://www.gutenberg.org/files/56463/56463-h/56463-h.htm#Page_223>

    A clinical treatment of androgyny is found in the Androgyny chapter of
    SEXUAL ANOMALIES AND PERVERSIONS: PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT
    AND TREATMENT by Magnus Hirsfeld (1937, posthumous).

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    A more recent treatment of the matter is in the "Transsexual Phenomenon" by Harry Benjamin who studied under Hirscfeld and
    a history of the whole early episode and biography of Magnus Hirscfeld
    in"THE INTERMEDIARIES" A Weimar Story by Brandy Schillace
    W. W. Norton. 352 pages, $31.99

    MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD (1868?1935) has benefited from a surge of interest in
    the past two decades and is frequently mentioned in these pages. While
    German historians have extensively studied his numerous publications,
    these have only become available in accurate English translations in
    this century thanks to the dedicated scholarship of Michael Lombardi-Nash.
    Hirschfeld was a gay sexologist who took advantage of work
    that had started on sex differences in chickens in the 17th Century
    leading to the discovery of the male and female hormones. He was
    interested in removing the Homosexual population of Germany from
    the criminal law. Ultimately due to the cultural misogyny of some
    groups of male homosexuals and the rise of the Hitlerian Regime
    his work and his organization was largely destroyed early in
    the time that the NAZI Party took power.
    Hitler's hatred of sexual variants is echoed in Trump's
    Executive orders and Hegseth's directives about transgender,
    gay and women service members along with his obvious disdain
    for people who are not white.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 08:58:58 2026
    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture
    wars these days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

    Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
    people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
    have been losing since at least the 1950s:
    -- no-fault divorce
    -- the end of the South's Special System
    -- gays out in the open, instead of in the closet
    -- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for now)
    -- gay marriage
    -- the entire trans phenomenon

    That's a lot of losing.

    Probably less than !% of the populace are gender variant and
    the only Transgender ideology is that the the people who are in
    discomfort because of anatomical disparities should be given palliative
    care.
    The dominate side of the discussion comes from the so-Called
    Christian Right who reject the idea that transgenderism points to the >existence of the Spirit or even perhaps a soul generated beyond the
    physical.

    I haven't run across anyone else suggesting that.

    In my continual reading of the Bible, I recently came across both
    Isaiah's and Jeremiah's statements on the topic of when God first knew
    them. Both, IMHO, support the idea that the soul is added when a live
    birth occurs.

    Unfortunately, since I have never explicitly searched for this, nor
    have any of the books or articles I have read gone into much detail
    (this is, apparently, a topic not much discussed nowadays) I do not
    know what the traditional view of the relation of body and soul is, or
    what variants exist. I have read of a view that the parents create it
    as they do the body, but how accepted that is I have no idea. There is
    also the idea (going back to at least Plato) that the souls exist
    outside the World and are inserted into the body at birth (the dialog
    this is in also includes reincarnation, so the whole concept may have
    come from the East).

    [1] Note to a prior responder: the criterion is independence, not
    capability. Breathing with a respirator independently of the mother
    counts.

    Speaking theoretically, someone who believed:
    -- that a human being is composed of body and soul; and
    -- that the soul has gender just as the body does
    would, it seems to me, conclude that
    -- trans is the result of the two genders differing
    in which case preferring the body's gender (that is, rejecting sex
    change treatment because the body's gender is the "real" gender)
    implies that they consider the body (which returns to the dust and, in
    the Resurrection is replaced) more important than the soul (Plato's
    soul is immortal and, being spirit, unchanging in the physical sense)
    -- which seems to me to be a rather strange attitude for someone
    claiming to be a believer.

    But this is all very speculative.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Tue Sep 15 15:16:43 2026
    Don wrote:


    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings,

    Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed. He said that he
    preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of progress was significant.

    It's a matter of attitude. In chess tournaments I preferred to play
    people much stronger than I was. I did not regard a loss against such a player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
    achievement, and a win was fantastic. By contrast, beating a dozen
    weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.

    But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
    in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
    this was the best way to improve.


    and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:

    "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"

    - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.


    William Hyde

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 16 07:42:28 2026
    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 08:58:58 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing gender
    differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture wars these
    days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

    Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
    people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
    have been losing since at least the 1950s:
    -- no-fault divorce -- the end of the South's Special System -- gays out
    in the open, instead of in the closet -- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for
    now)
    -- gay marriage -- the entire trans phenomenon

    That's a lot of losing.



    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
    1990s.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 16 11:16:08 2026
    BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    <snip>

    A more recent treatment of the matter is in the "Transsexual Phenomenon" by Harry Benjamin who studied under Hirscfeld and
    a history of the whole early episode and biography of Magnus Hirscfeld in"THE INTERMEDIARIES" A Weimar Story by Brandy Schillace
    W. W. Norton. 352 pages, $31.99

    MAGNUS HIRSCHFELD (1868?1935) has benefited from a surge of interest in
    the past two decades and is frequently mentioned in these pages. While
    German historians have extensively studied his numerous publications,
    these have only become available in accurate English translations in
    this century thanks to the dedicated scholarship of Michael Lombardi-Nash.
    Hirschfeld was a gay sexologist who took advantage of work
    that had started on sex differences in chickens in the 17th Century
    leading to the discovery of the male and female hormones. He was
    interested in removing the Homosexual population of Germany from
    the criminal law. Ultimately due to the cultural misogyny of some
    groups of male homosexuals and the rise of the Hitlerian Regime
    his work and his organization was largely destroyed early in
    the time that the NAZI Party took power.
    Hitler's hatred of sexual variants is echoed in Trump's
    Executive orders and Hegseth's directives about transgender,
    gay and women service members along with his obvious disdain
    for people who are not white.


    Identity politics is a psyop:


    NEWS: MAGA activists Scott Presler, Brilyn
    Hollyhand, and Benny Johnson will all be in
    Dallas this week for the Trump Midterm
    Convention, where they aim to make the U.S.
    Senate race in Texas a referendum on
    masculinity.

    The left makes fun of the right for being secretly gay,
    while the secretly gay right makes fun of the left for
    being too gay.

    Who is pushing this garbage culture war?!

    <https://x.com/5149jamesli/status/2097751476399739379>

    ...

    Republicans are secretly gay and openly zionists,
    Democrats are openly gay and secretly zionists.

    <https://x.com/Josiahbuilds/status/2097788787002638714>


    Q. "Who is pushing this garbage culture war?!"
    A. The Epstein Coalition

    The Epstein Coalition includes Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem. The Coalition
    displays a "Muslims for me, but not for thee" attitide towards an
    emergent Catholic-Muslim alliance:


    Hasan Piker Praises Candace Owens for Undermining Charlie
    Kirk Assassination Narrative

    Last updated Aug 17, 2026

    Charlie Kirk was fatally shot in the neck on September 10,
    2025, while speaking at Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah.
    Tyler Robinson, 23, faces aggravated murder charges as a
    radicalized leftist who fired from a nearby rooftop and later
    turned himself in. Piker credited Owens with single-handedly
    blocking Republican efforts to crack down on left-wing dissent
    by promoting unproven theories like Israel or Turning Point
    USA involvement, drawing sharp conservative backlash that sees
    it as shielding extremism.

    <https://x.com/i/trending/2089443474827346409>


    A R?DE microphone packed with PETN killed Kirk. Israel used PETN for its infamous pager attack in 2024. Bibi gave a gold pager to Trump to
    commemorate his demonic act.
    The Epstein Coalition transcends political parties. Although the
    Coalition mouthpiece above asserts "unproven theories" it is the
    Coalition itself that continually pivots to new falsehoods in the face
    of Owens' unrelenting, mounting evidence.

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 16 09:11:18 2026
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 08:58:58 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers
    <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely?

    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender
    differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture wars
    these
    days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

    Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
    people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
    have been losing since at least the 1950s:
    -- no-fault divorce -- the end of the South's Special System -- gays
    out
    in the open, instead of in the closet -- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for
    now)
    -- gay marriage -- the entire trans phenomenon

    That's a lot of losing.



    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
    1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they get worked up enough.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From BobbieSellers@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 16 10:33:42 2026
    On 9/16/26 09:11, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 08:58:58 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers
    <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely? >>>>>>>
    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing gender >>>>> differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture wars these >>>>> days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

    Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
    people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
    have been losing since at least the 1950s:
    -- no-fault divorce -- the end of the South's Special System -- gays out >>> in the open, instead of in the closet -- Roe v Wade (reversed ... for
    now)
    -- gay marriage -- the entire trans phenomenon

    That's a lot of losing.



    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
    1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they get worked up enough.

    Whose past does the violence lie in?
    Everone's but these are some of the TG victims,
    Ask Mathew Carpenter? Brandon Teena? Lia Smith? Brianna Ghey?
    Sam Nordquist? to name just a few of the victims of Anti-LGBTQ+
    violence.

    And here is a current POV article by someone with the name Bobbie who is not me.

    Too much trans discourse? or an anti-trans saturation strategy that works on multiple levels?
    by WarpedBobbie

    <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/9/15/800097392/community/too-much-trans-discourse-or-a-trans-saturation-strategy-taht/>

    bliss



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 07:53:05 2026
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness. But violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 08:46:01 2026
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 10:33:42 -0700, BobbieSellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/16/26 09:11, Paul S Person wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 08:58:58 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Tue, 15 Sep 2026 07:40:32 -0700, BobbieSellers
    <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.invalid> wrote:

    On 9/15/26 00:46, Charles Packer wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Sep 2026 08:27:34 -0700, BobbieSellers wrote:

    On 9/6/26 05:27, James Nicoll wrote:
    Venus Plus X by Theodore Sturgeon

    Ledom! Futuristic egalitarian utopia or something else entirely? >>>>>>>>
    https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/just-conform

    Exactly!

    bliss

    This suggests a name for somebody who is obsessed with erasing
    gender
    differences: ledomist. They seem to be leading the culture wars
    these
    days.


    Har4ly so. The culture war is led by those who want to deny
    the gender variants rights as human beings presently.

    Perhaps by "leading" he meant "winning". As I have noted before, the
    people you are referring to, despite loudly wanting a "culture war",
    have been losing since at least the 1950s:
    -- no-fault divorce -- the end of the South's Special System -- gays
    out
    in the open, instead of in the closet -- Roe v Wade (reversed ...
    for
    now)
    -- gay marriage -- the entire trans phenomenon

    That's a lot of losing.



    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
    1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they get worked up enough.

    Whose past does the violence lie in?
    Everone's but these are some of the TG victims,
    Ask Mathew Carpenter? Brandon Teena? Lia Smith? Brianna Ghey?
    Sam Nordquist? to name just a few of the victims of Anti-LGBTQ+
    violence.

    And here is a current POV article by someone with the name Bobbie who
    is not me.

    Too much trans discourse? or an anti-trans saturation strategy that
    works on multiple levels?
    by WarpedBobbie

    <https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2026/9/15/800097392/community/too-much -trans-discourse-or-a-trans-saturation-strategy-taht/>

    I must have /really unclear/.

    The people I am talking about are right-wingers in general and MAGA in particular.

    Plus the evangelicals of the Religious Wrong, of course. Who do you
    think has been promoting belief in a "culture war" and vowing to win
    it? Who else is claiming to be persecuted for being Christian while conspicuously not being persecuted (at worst, inconvenienced) while
    behaving nothing like one? who else do you think /lost/ on all those
    issues?

    Not the left, not the woke, not the pro-choice, not the atheists.

    And what was the Republican Party's reward for actually carrying out
    their promise to repeal Roe v Wade? The 2018 "red wave" was so puny
    you could hardly see it and may have contributed to the result in
    2020, several States controlled by Republicans found that the people
    living in those States rejected efforts to outlaw abortion (to the
    point that (IIRF) at least one of them tried to pass an amendment to
    the State Constitution requiring referenda in the future to pass in
    each and every county rather than state-wide (rejected by the people)
    ... what lesson can be learned from this? Why, that some compaign
    promises must never, ever, be fulfilled.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 08:52:25 2026
    On Thu, 17 Sep 2026 07:53:05 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    Again, I must being unbelievably unclear.

    The losers fighting back are those known for:

    -- deorating their neighbor's lawns with burning crosses

    -- lynching any of "them" who get "uppity"


    among many other atrocities.

    Trump won in 2024 by actually campaigning. The Dems defaulted to not
    even trying.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Dorsey@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 13:45:52 2026
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness. But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    When I was a kid, the OED said that the male words always included the
    female and my English teacher gave the example of "Man is viviparous
    and he bears live young." This is very clumsy. On the other hand, we
    don't have aviatrices anymore, so in a lot of ways we have been joining
    male and female words together anyway.

    I'm okay with the singular "they." The OED from when I was a kid says
    it's fine. Pity the poor French people for whom every object has an inconvenient gender.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 18:23:58 2026
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
    Don wrote:


    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings,

    Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed. He said that he
    preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of progress was significant.

    It's a matter of attitude. In chess tournaments I preferred to play
    people much stronger than I was. I did not regard a loss against such a player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an achievement, and a win was fantastic. By contrast, beating a dozen
    weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.

    But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
    in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
    this was the best way to improve.


    and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:

    "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"

    - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.

    Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller)
    is accepted in his own native place."

    In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men
    should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
    the multitude concurs with and applauds them."

    In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
    men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.

    EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:

    For many centuries, so great was the infatuation,
    about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
    put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
    utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
    his soul alone.

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 19:06:34 2026
    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness. But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    When I was a kid, the OED said that the male words always included the
    female and my English teacher gave the example of "Man is viviparous
    and he bears live young." This is very clumsy. On the other hand, we
    don't have aviatrices anymore, so in a lot of ways we have been joining
    male and female words together anyway.

    I'm okay with the singular "they." The OED from when I was a kid says
    it's fine. Pity the poor French people for whom every object has an >inconvenient gender.
    --scott

    The Germans too. In Deutsch, the definitive article gender of an
    object/noun doesn't always make logical sense, for example:

    die Sonne, die Wand, die Person [The Sun, The Wall, The person] all use
    the feminine definitive article.

    das M?dchen [The Girl] Neuter definitive article
    der Rock [The Skirt] Masculine definitive article.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 15:56:28 2026
    Don wrote:
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
    Don wrote:


    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings,

    Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed. He said that he
    preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of
    progress was significant.

    It's a matter of attitude. In chess tournaments I preferred to play
    people much stronger than I was. I did not regard a loss against such a
    player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
    achievement, and a win was fantastic. By contrast, beating a dozen
    weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.

    But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength,
    in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
    this was the best way to improve.


    and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:

    "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"

    - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.

    Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller)
    is accepted in his own native place."

    My take on this is that most prophets are merely layabouts trying to
    avoid real work, and the people who know them best are on to the con.


    In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
    the multitude concurs with and applauds them."

    This actually worked wonders for soviet chess. They were self critical
    in the extreme, and this helped them. Fischer, one of the soviet
    school's greatest members, can be seen doing this in his "My 60
    memorable games". In one case he comments "Ironically, I wouldn't have
    won the brilliancy prize if I had chosen the strongest move here".


    In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
    men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.

    Bacon could have had in mind Dr Dee, who after doing good work in
    mathematics drifted into occultism. From the perspective of a believer,
    I suppose it does make sense to summon an angel and ask it about the
    laws of physics, rather than spend your entire life making what seems to
    you a small amount of progress. But if the angel never shows up you've
    wasted your life.

    The above is an oversimplification of a very complex man, of course. He
    was writing Hermetic works from a fairly early age.

    EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:

    For many centuries, so great was the infatuation,
    about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
    put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
    utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
    his soul alone.

    Newton and Lavoisier, Spinoza and Leibnitz, Linnaeus and Hutton, all
    postdated Bacon and predated Poe. I'd say they did a lot of thinking,
    properly so called.

    Poe hated chess. If he tried to find the right moves by questioning his
    soul, that is understandable.

    William Hyde


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 20:07:59 2026
    In article <pan$75fa3$84a19806$dbc0a25$c9deae27@cpacker.org>,
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness. But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    We had a guy at work who got het up over "they" and what did the
    trick with him was a classroom of students beating him with chairs
    before he could kill the prof, followed by an eleven-year prison
    term.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 02:00:31 2026
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
    Don wrote:
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
    Don wrote:


    OF NATURE IN MEN by Francis Bacon (1625) sets a stage, so to speak,
    for gender fluidity:

    He that seeketh victory over his nature, let him not set
    himself too great nor too small tasks; for the first will
    make him dejected by often failings,

    Physicist and AF author Robert Forward disagreed. He said that he
    preferred to tackle problems deemed impossible,as even a tiny amount of
    progress was significant.

    It's a matter of attitude. In chess tournaments I preferred to play
    people much stronger than I was. I did not regard a loss against such a >>> player as a disappointment, while even a draw against such was an
    achievement, and a win was fantastic. By contrast, beating a dozen
    weaker players did not, in my view,add up to much.

    But some people prefer to play opponents very nearly their own strength, >>> in agreement with Bacon's point. Soviet trainers, long the best, felt
    this was the best way to improve.


    and the second will
    make him a small proceeder, though by often prevailings.

    The grant system rewards this kind of work, or as Tennyson said:

    "Science moves, but slowly, slowly, creeping on from point to point"

    - though many of the best scientists I knew took Bacon's advice.

    Lk 4:24 And he said, "Amen, I say to you, no prophet (eg truth teller)
    is accepted in his own native place."

    My take on this is that most prophets are merely layabouts trying to
    avoid real work, and the people who know them best are on to the con.


    In NOVUM ORGANUM, Book I, Aphorism 77, Bacon says it this way: "That men
    should immediately examine what error or fault they have committed, when
    the multitude concurs with and applauds them."

    This actually worked wonders for soviet chess. They were self critical
    in the extreme, and this helped them. Fischer, one of the soviet
    school's greatest members, can be seen doing this in his "My 60
    memorable games". In one case he comments "Ironically, I wouldn't have
    won the brilliancy prize if I had chosen the strongest move here".


    In Aphorism 79 Bacon grouses about how theological obsessions distract
    men of wit to ultimately slow down scientific advancement.

    Bacon could have had in mind Dr Dee, who after doing good work in
    mathematics drifted into occultism. From the perspective of a believer,
    I suppose it does make sense to summon an angel and ask it about the
    laws of physics, rather than spend your entire life making what seems to
    you a small amount of progress. But if the angel never shows up you've wasted your life.

    The above is an oversimplification of a very complex man, of course. He
    was writing Hermetic works from a fairly early age.

    EUREKA by Poe finds fault with both of Bacon's two speeds:

    For many centuries, so great was the infatuation,
    about Hog (Bacon) especially, that a virtual stop was
    put to all thinking, properly so called. No man dared
    utter a truth for which he felt himself indebted to
    his soul alone.

    Newton and Lavoisier, Spinoza and Leibnitz, Linnaeus and Hutton, all postdated Bacon and predated Poe. I'd say they did a lot of thinking, properly so called.

    Poe hated chess. If he tried to find the right moves by questioning his soul, that is understandable.

    Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:

    Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed -- these
    laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
    British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
    (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
    we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
    Yes! -- these vital laws Kepler guessed -- that it is
    to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
    out either the deductive or inductive route by which
    he attained them, his reply might have been -- 'I
    know nothing about routes -- but I do know the
    machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
    with my soul -- I reached it through mere dint of
    intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
    metaphysician have told him that what he called
    'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
    deductions or inductions of which the processes were
    so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
    eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
    of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
    philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
    How it would have comforted him on his death-bed to
    know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
    thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
    decorously and legitimately -- that is to say
    Hog-ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram-ishly (Aristotle)
    -- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
    and hitherto untouched by mortal hand -- unseen by
    mortal eye -- the imperishable and priceless secrets
    of the Universe!

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Charles Packer@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 08:00:13 2026
    On Thu, 17 Sep 2026 08:52:25 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Thu, 17 Sep 2026 07:53:05 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage, were >>>>indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of he or she? >>This is what got Trump elected (although running a woman against him
    might have sufficed).

    Again, I must being unbelievably unclear.

    The losers fighting back are those known for:

    -- deorating their neighbor's lawns with burning crosses

    -- lynching any of "them" who get "uppity"


    among many other atrocities.

    Trump won in 2024 by actually campaigning. The Dems defaulted to not
    even trying.


    The newspaper database shows that the count of references to
    "party platform" all but vanished rather suddenly in the 1990s.
    This can be taken to mean that debate of issues disappered from
    presidential politics. Is there some kind of thumb on the scales?
    Without debate of the issues, campaigns run on fumes. It's not
    difficult to imagine that this is how a totalitarian regime could
    subvert a republic through control of the news media.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 08:46:31 2026
    On Thu, 17 Sep 2026 13:45:52 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
    Dorsey) wrote:

    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage,
    were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the 1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some
    of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    When I was a kid, the OED said that the male words always included the
    female and my English teacher gave the example of "Man is viviparous
    and he bears live young." This is very clumsy. On the other hand, we
    don't have aviatrices anymore, so in a lot of ways we have been joining
    male and female words together anyway.

    If you take "Man" as another name for our species, it is also true.

    I'm okay with the singular "they." The OED from when I was a kid says
    it's fine. Pity the poor French people for whom every object has an >inconvenient gender.

    I am finding it more and more useful myself.

    German nouns also have gender. In the past (but not, I suspect at
    present, you had things like:

    Herr Doktor -- a doctor
    Frau Doktor -- a doctor's wife
    Doktorin -- a female doctor

    The first two, of course, presumed the actual Doktor was male. This
    applied both to medical doctors and PhDs.

    The Roman/Latinate "Senator/Senatrix" may have been applied to members
    of the US Senate for a while but, as you note, this sort of thing has
    gone out of fashion, mostly, in the USA.

    If anyone wants to search hard enough, they may find some opposition
    to this. They might even find assertions that it is an affront to God
    to apply "plumber", say to a woman.

    In this case, I suspect, convenience triumphed over tradition.
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul S Person@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 08:52:33 2026
    On Thu, 17 Sep 2026 19:06:34 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
    wrote:

    kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) writes:
    Charles Packer <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 09:11:18 -0700, Paul S Person wrote:

    On Wed, 16 Sep 2026 07:42:28 -0000 (UTC), Charles Packer
    <mailbox@cpacker.org> wrote:

    The acceptance of homosexuality, along with interracial marriage, >>>>>were indeed social successes, a done deal -- by the end of the
    1990s.

    Thank you for confirming my point.

    Having lost so much, for so long, is it really any wonder that some
    of
    them are fighting back? Mostly with words (so far), thank goodness.
    But
    violence lies in their past, and so is possible in their future if
    they
    get worked up enough.

    Fighting back by trying to make us all say "they" instead of
    he or she? This is what got Trump elected (although running a
    woman against him might have sufficed).

    When I was a kid, the OED said that the male words always included the >>female and my English teacher gave the example of "Man is viviparous
    and he bears live young." This is very clumsy. On the other hand, we >>don't have aviatrices anymore, so in a lot of ways we have been joining >>male and female words together anyway.

    I'm okay with the singular "they." The OED from when I was a kid says
    it's fine. Pity the poor French people for whom every object has an >>inconvenient gender.
    --scott

    The Germans too. In Deutsch, the definitive article gender of an >object/noun doesn't always make logical sense, for example:

    die Sonne, die Wand, die Person [The Sun, The Wall, The person] all use
    the feminine definitive article.

    das M?dchen [The Girl] Neuter definitive article
    der Rock [The Skirt] Masculine definitive article.

    Beginning English-speaking students of such languages can have a hard
    time learning to distinguish between "gender" and "grammatical
    gender".
    --
    "Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
    Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
    Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From The True Melissa@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 13:02:43 2026
    Paul S Person wrote in article
    <r7nqal54gqd4ktrol79ch8d8t1ehjlrteg@4ax.com>:

    Beginning English-speaking students of such languages can have a hard
    time learning to distinguish between "gender" and "grammatical
    gender".

    We never should have started using "gender" as a euphemism for
    "sex," but I'm told the Victorians thought the latter word was
    too shocking for ladies to hear.

    --
    The True Melissa - Canal Winchester - Ohio
    United States of America - North America - Earth
    Solar System - Milky Way - Local Group
    Virgo Cluster - Laniakea Supercluster - Cosmos

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From William Hyde@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 16:20:09 2026
    Don wrote:


    Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:

    Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed -- these
    laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
    British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
    (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
    we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
    Yes! -- these vital laws Kepler guessed -- that it is
    to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
    out either the deductive or inductive route by which
    he attained them, his reply might have been -- 'I
    know nothing about routes -- but I do know the
    machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
    with my soul -- I reached it through mere dint of
    intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
    metaphysician have told him that what he called
    'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
    deductions or inductions of which the processes were
    so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
    eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
    of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
    philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
    How it would have comforted him on his death-bed to
    know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
    thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
    decorously and legitimately -- that is to say
    Hog-ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram-ishly (Aristotle)
    -- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
    and hitherto untouched by mortal hand -- unseen by
    mortal eye -- the imperishable and priceless secrets
    of the Universe!

    That might pass muster in a bar where people are drunkenly arguing.
    Nowhere else.


    Luckily for us, he turned his brilliance mostly towards fiction and poetry.

    William Hyde



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Don@3:633/10 to All on Sat Sep 19 00:59:58 2026
    William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
    Don wrote:


    Another pertinent excerpt from EUREKA by Poe:

    Kepler admitted that these laws he guessed ---- these
    laws whose investigation disclosed to the greatest of
    British astronomers that principle, the basis of all
    (existing) physical principle, in going behind which
    we enter at once the nebulous kingdom of Metaphysics.
    Yes! ---- these vital laws Kepler guessed ---- that it is
    to say, he imagined them. Had he been asked to point
    out either the deductive or inductive route by which
    he attained them, his reply might have been ---- 'I
    know nothing about routes ---- but I do know the
    machinery of the Universe. Here it is. I grasped it
    with my soul ---- I reached it through mere dint of
    intuition. 'Alas, poor ignorant old man! Could not any
    metaphysician have told him that what he called
    'intuition' was but the conviction resulting from
    deductions or inductions of which the processes were
    so shadowy as to have escaped his consciousness,
    eluded his reason, or bidden defiance to his capacity
    of expression? How great a pity it is that some 'moral
    philosopher' had not enlightened him about all this!
    How it would have comforted him on his death--bed to
    know that, instead of having gone intuitively and
    thus unbecomingly, he had, in fact, proceeded
    decorously and legitimately ---- that is to say
    Hog--ishly (Bacon), or at least Ram--ishly (Aristotle)
    ---- into the vast halls where lay gleaming, untended,
    and hitherto untouched by mortal hand ---- unseen by
    mortal eye ---- the imperishable and priceless secrets
    of the Universe!

    That might pass muster in a bar where people are drunkenly arguing.
    Nowhere else.


    Luckily for us, he turned his brilliance mostly towards fiction and poetry.

    Even more luckily, London literary slop lost narrative control. Come on William, live a little, and laugh along with Poe as he pokes pompous
    posers.

    EDGAR ALLAN POE: THE LOST SOUL OF AMERICA by Allen Salisbury:

    (excerpt)

    Poe often had a great deal of fun composing tales that
    mocked the methods employed by the leading British literary
    journals. One of Poe's favorite targets in this regard was
    Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine. Blackwood's was notorious
    for its sense-certainty literary style, and this style was
    the source for two of the most hilarious satires written by
    Poe, "How to Write a Blackwood Article," and "A Predicament."

    ...

    In his tale of ratiocination "The Purloined Letter," Poe
    presents us with a problem that is unresolvable by methods
    of "creeping"-sense certainty. Here we have a problem
    concerning the letter and its whereabouts. Yet the prefect
    of police, carrying sense-certainty methods to their
    extremes, cannot locate it. Dupin, using superior methods,
    does. Poe's story "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" is a case
    where reason succeeds, while mere deduction from certain
    clues fails.

    On this point, Edgar Allan Poe drove Arthur Conan Doyle
    into hysterical fits of defending the deductive method. For
    example, in his introduction to A Study in Scarlet, Doyle
    has Sherlock Holmes react the following way when Watson
    informs him that it is the Earth that revolves around the
    sun:

    "Now that I do know it I shall do my best to
    forget it."

    ...

    Later Holmes defends Euclid, the Aristotelean whom Poe
    attacked. Still later, he attacks Poe?s method directly:

    "No doubt you think that you are complimenting
    me in comparing me to Dupin," he observed. "Now,
    in my opinion, Dupin was a very inferior fellow.
    That trick of his of breaking in on his friends?
    thoughts with an apropos remark after a quarter
    of an hour?s silence is really very showy and
    superficial. He had some analytical genius, no
    doubt; but he was by no means such a phenomenon
    as Poe appeared to imagine."

    On this same point--that of having the ability to look
    into the very soul of another--Arthur Conan Doyle's
    countryman Charles Dickens believed Poe possessed
    some sort of mystical powers. It was Poe's habit to guess
    the ending of the Dickens novels which appeared in serial
    form in American magazines. Having successfully "guessed"
    the ending of several novels, Poe proceeded to explain why
    it was so easy to determine the ending of a novel written
    by formula. The reader should not be amazed at this ability.
    It is somewhat akin to the way you are able to predict the
    outcome of so many of the "made for television" movies that
    you watch every night, bored but glued to the chair as you
    await the next jiggle of sensation to flash across the boob
    tube.

    ...

    Danke,

    --
    Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
    tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)