• An arcology that isn't going to be built...

    From Thomas Koenig@3:633/10 to All on Sat Nov 15 18:04:38 2025
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.
    --
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  • From Lynn McGuire@3:633/10 to All on Sat Nov 15 19:40:22 2025
    On 11/15/2025 12:04 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    ????

    Lynn


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
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  • From danny burstein@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 01:48:01 2025
    In <10fba26$3s90m$1@dont-email.me> Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:

    On 11/15/2025 12:04 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    ????

    pretty decent set of Wiki writes-up

    a: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neom

    b: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Line,_Saudi_Arabia



    --
    _____________________________________________________
    Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
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    [to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]

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  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sat Nov 15 17:52:46 2025


    On 11/15/25 17:40, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 11/15/2025 12:04 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    ????

    Lynn


    The heroic author of the OP left out this URL which contains a description.
    <https://www.designboom.com/architecture/the-line-reality-saudi-arabia-architectural-future-neom-11-05-2025/>

    If it is not built or if it is built it may be a tragedy or Triump like
    the Nuclear
    weapons or getting IC engines all over the planet.

    Time will tell, Lynn M. and Thomas K.

    bliss - lived on in an alternative future without the rolling roads...

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
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  • From Thomas Koenig@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 08:06:16 2025
    Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
    On 11/15/2025 12:04 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    ????

    Saudi-Arabia wanted to build a 170 km * 200 m (widht) * 500 m (height) building/city, outside totally made of glass, including high-speec
    trains. A nice concept image can be found at

    https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/saudi-arabia-asks-consultants-review-feasibility-line-report

    They also had little things like a football (well, soccer to
    you) stadium over a 350 m building hanging from the top, plus a
    salt-water harbor (without water exchange to the outlying sea)
    for cruise ships.

    Quite a few technologies they would needed have not even been
    prototyped, and, according to reports, costs estimates jumped from
    5e11 dollar to 1.6e12 dollar to 4.5e12 dollar (compare a GNP
    per year of 1.1e12 dollar).

    But the computer-generated pictures look nice, and iw would have
    been a perfect setting for all sorts of SF set in arcologies.
    --
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  • From a425couple@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 05:59:36 2025
    On 11/15/25 10:04, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    Speaking of big populous buildings,
    I'll just send again what I sent yesterday:

    well, from Goodreads

    "The World Inside" by Robert Silverberg
    3.73
    3,107 ratings 342 reviews
    Earth 2381: The hordes of humanity have withdrawn into isolated
    1000-story Urbmons, comfortably controlled multicity-buildings which perpetuate an open culture of free sex and unrestricted population
    growth. Nearly all of Earth's 75 billion live in the hundreds of
    monolithic structures scattered across the globe, with the exception of
    the small agricultural communes that supply the Urbmons with food

    from the wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside#Plot_introduction

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the highest possible good. Most of the action occurs in a massive three-kilometer-high city tower called Urban Monad 116.

    Plot summary
    War, starvation, crime and birth control have been eliminated. Life is
    now totally fulfilled and sustained within Urban Monads (Urbmons),
    mammoth thousand-floor skyscrapers arranged in "constellations", where
    the shadow of one building does not fall upon another. An Urbmon is
    divided into 25 self-contained "cities" of 40 floors each, in ascending
    order of status, with administrators occupying the highest level. Each building can hold approximately 800,000 people, with excess population totalling three billion a year transferred to new Urbmons, which are continually under construction.

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  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 15:18:21 2025
    On 11/15/2025 8:40 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
    On 11/15/2025 12:04 PM, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Seems that "The Line", the futuristic arcology-style city of 9 Million
    people of size 170 km * 200 m, is not going to be built after all.

    Its description read like something out of science fiction novel,
    and that in the realm of science fiction it will remain.

    ????

    Lynn

    A series of insanely ambitious projects that Mohammed bin
    Salman, the prime minister of Saudi Arabia, proclaimed
    would be built in the NW of the country, near the top of
    the Red Sea. The biggest was the Line, a 500 meter high,
    200 meter high, 170 km long city-in-building, but it
    included many other projects.

    There's an interesting YT video about the cancellation,
    with a claim that it was MbS never actually wanted to
    finish it - the full cost was about 8 trillion dollars.
    It goes into the finances and problems in some detail.
    Overall, 100 billion has been spent, with relatively
    little to show for it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOG4qCx0peA

    pt

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  • From Thomas Koenig@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 20:59:33 2025
    Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> schrieb:
    danny burstein <dannyb@panix.com> wrote or quoted:
    pretty decent set of Wiki writes-up

    From what I've seen as a software designer, mostly on the side,
    here's how I'd roll with building something reflective that's
    200 meters wide, 170 km long, and 500 meters tall:

    Start by making something reflective but smaller - like 20 meters
    wide, 50 meters long, and 10 meters high - and run with that for
    a few years to get the hang of it.

    After that, you can maybe scale up by adding something next
    to it that's 150 meters long, 50 meters wide, and 50 meters
    tall, and keep going like that.

    I'm thinking of calling it "agile building architecture" and
    patenting it.

    Unfortunately, the scaling laws of mechanics are not that easy.
    Compare the thickness of legs for mice and elephants, and you
    may get an idea why.
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  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 21:27:39 2025
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
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  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 21:33:42 2025
    On 2025-11-16, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

    Saudi-Arabia wanted to build a 170 km * 200 m (widht) * 500 m (height) building/city, outside totally made of glass, including high-speec
    trains.

    I've been mystified why they chose a line. Doesn't that maximize
    the average distance between two arbitrary points? Isn't that
    exactly the opposite of what you want for a city? Or was the idea
    to build this out of repeating segments, so a citizen could spent
    their life in one segment and would never have to travel the length
    of the line?

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Nicoll@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 02:26:49 2025
    In article <slrn10hkgeb.2fvn.naddy@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
    Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the
    highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.

    This is the World Inside? The numbers in the book are wacky.
    Let me dig out an old file...

    The population in the Urbmons is 75 billion. The limit is thought to
    be 200 billion. This is treated as a problem for the far future but at
    4% a year, it's actually more like 25 years away. Worse, the impression
    given is that the world has been in a high population, high birthrate situation since "the collapse" centuries ago but at 4% per year for 200
    years, the starting population would have had to be no more than about
    30 million people.
    --
    My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
    My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
    My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
    My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

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  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Sun Nov 16 22:28:18 2025


    On 11/16/25 13:27, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the
    highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.


    Remember that attrition occurs. Plus generations were reckoned
    at 20 years but that was 70 years ago when I was in school.
    Maybe the 30 year figure is based on data?

    bliss
    new

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
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  • From Thomas Koenig@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 07:22:19 2025
    Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> schrieb:
    On 2025-11-16, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:

    Saudi-Arabia wanted to build a 170 km * 200 m (widht) * 500 m (height)
    building/city, outside totally made of glass, including high-speec
    trains.

    I've been mystified why they chose a line. Doesn't that maximize
    the average distance between two arbitrary points? Isn't that
    exactly the opposite of what you want for a city? Or was the idea
    to build this out of repeating segments, so a citizen could spent
    their life in one segment and would never have to travel the length
    of the line?

    There was supposed to be a train system which would connect the
    two ends within 20 minutes (work out the speed for yourself...)
    I have not read anything about local area (or should I say "local
    length"?) transit in addition to that.

    Another interesting aspect, discussed nowhere that I have read,
    is fire safety. with more than 50 people per meter, how do
    you evacuate people in case of a fire from up to 500 m? Also,
    skyscrapers have room between them, which creates natural fire
    breaks. The Line would have had none that I had seen (but
    they may have been included for all I know).
    --
    This USENET posting was made without artificial intelligence,
    artificial impertinence, artificial arrogance, artificial stupidity,
    artificial flavorings or artificial colorants.

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  • From Christian Weisgerber@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 10:45:18 2025
    On 2025-11-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the >>> highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.


    Remember that attrition occurs.

    That's subsumed under the overall x% growth figure.

    Plus generations were reckoned
    at 20 years but that was 70 years ago when I was in school.
    Maybe the 30 year figure is based on data?

    I just picked 30 years. "Three generations per century" we were
    taught in school some forty years ago and 0.63% yearly growth is
    harder to intuitively make sense of. You can fiddle with the
    figures, but won't get a more plausible result. It's a standard
    compound interest calculation. If you deposit 8 (billion) bucks
    now and get payed out 75 (billion) in 356 years, the yearly interest
    is 0.63%.

    --
    Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From a425couple@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 08:02:32 2025
    On 11/17/25 02:45, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the >>>> planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the >>>> highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.

    Remember that attrition occurs.

    That's subsumed under the overall x% growth figure.

    Plus generations were reckoned
    at 20 years but that was 70 years ago when I was in school.
    Maybe the 30 year figure is based on data?

    I just picked 30 years. "Three generations per century" we were
    taught in school some forty years ago and 0.63% yearly growth is
    harder to intuitively make sense of. You can fiddle with the
    figures, but won't get a more plausible result. It's a standard
    compound interest calculation. If you deposit 8 (billion) bucks
    now and get payed out 75 (billion) in 356 years, the yearly interest
    is 0.63%.

    The future that Silverberg was portraying in his
    "The World Inside" was just totally different that the
    reality of our low middle income childbirth rates
    and our old "generations" ideas that it just does
    not compare.
    Big one, child bearing ages now are quite concerned
    with finances and time constraints.
    Silverbergs view in that book eliminated those and also
    had a special kick of religious duty.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 14:08:11 2025
    On 11/16/2025 4:27 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the
    highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.


    I recall a good deal of near-porn in the book, to emphasize the
    social drive to procreate. Its very much a 'casual sex world'.

    It *was* 1970, and Silverberg knew what would appeal to his
    fans.

    Other 'crowded Earth' stories:

    Best known is probably 'Make Room! Make Room! by Harry
    Harrison (1966), which has 7 billion in 1999.

    There's also 'Billenium' by Ballard (1961), with 20 billion.
    Probably set in 21st century.

    The crowded Earth I'm aware of is "A Torrent of
    Faces" by James Blish and Norman Knight. That had an
    Earth population of 1 trillion in 2794.

    pt




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Cryptoengineer@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 14:11:03 2025
    On 11/17/2025 11:02 AM, a425couple wrote:
    On 11/17/25 02:45, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-17, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the >>>>> planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction
    as the
    highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.

    ˙˙˙˙Remember that attrition occurs.

    That's subsumed under the overall x% growth figure.

    Plus generations were reckoned
    at 20 years but that was 70 years ago when I was in school.
    ˙˙˙˙Maybe the 30 year figure is based on data?

    I just picked 30 years.˙ "Three generations per century" we were
    taught in school some forty years ago and 0.63% yearly growth is
    harder to intuitively make sense of.˙ You can fiddle with the
    figures, but won't get a more plausible result.˙ It's a standard
    compound interest calculation.˙ If you deposit 8 (billion) bucks
    now and get payed out 75 (billion) in 356 years, the yearly interest
    is 0.63%.

    The future that Silverberg was portraying in his
    "The World Inside" was just totally different that the
    reality of our low middle income childbirth rates
    and our old "generations" ideas that it just does
    not compare.
    Big one, child bearing ages now are quite concerned
    with finances and time constraints.
    Silverbergs view in that book eliminated those and also
    had a special kick of religious duty.


    The book explicitly has people usually marrying at 12, and
    becoming parents by 14.

    pt


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Robert Woodward@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 21:51:50 2025
    In article <10ffrqr$12513$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 11/16/2025 4:27 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the
    planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the >> highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.


    I recall a good deal of near-porn in the book, to emphasize the
    social drive to procreate. Its very much a 'casual sex world'.

    It *was* 1970, and Silverberg knew what would appeal to his
    fans.

    Other 'crowded Earth' stories:

    Best known is probably 'Make Room! Make Room! by Harry
    Harrison (1966), which has 7 billion in 1999.

    There's also 'Billenium' by Ballard (1961), with 20 billion.
    Probably set in 21st century.

    The crowded Earth I'm aware of is "A Torrent of
    Faces" by James Blish and Norman Knight. That had an
    Earth population of 1 trillion in 2794.


    There is also T. J. Bass's two book series, _Half Past Human_ and _The Godwhale_. The population of Earth in that was about 3 trillion
    genetically modified humans.

    --
    "We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
    Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_. ?-----------------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodward robertaw@drizzle.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bobbie Sellers@3:633/10 to All on Mon Nov 17 22:14:44 2025


    On 11/17/25 21:51, Robert Woodward wrote:
    In article <10ffrqr$12513$1@dont-email.me>,
    Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 11/16/2025 4:27 PM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
    On 2025-11-16, a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:

    The novel is set on Earth in the year 2381, when the population of the >>>> planet has reached 75 billion people.[4] Population growth has
    skyrocketed due to a quasi-religious belief in human reproduction as the >>>> highest possible good.

    Going from 8 billions now, that reflects a modest population growth
    of 20.5% for each 30-year generation.


    I recall a good deal of near-porn in the book, to emphasize the
    social drive to procreate. Its very much a 'casual sex world'.

    It *was* 1970, and Silverberg knew what would appeal to his
    fans.

    Other 'crowded Earth' stories:

    Best known is probably 'Make Room! Make Room! by Harry
    Harrison (1966), which has 7 billion in 1999.

    There's also 'Billenium' by Ballard (1961), with 20 billion.
    Probably set in 21st century.

    The crowded Earth I'm aware of is "A Torrent of
    Faces" by James Blish and Norman Knight. That had an
    Earth population of 1 trillion in 2794.


    There is also T. J. Bass's two book series, _Half Past Human_ and _The Godwhale_. The population of Earth in that was about 3 trillion
    genetically modified humans.


    "Stand on Zanzibar" by John Brunner in 1968 unless you read it in
    New Worlds magazine in 1967.

    bliss

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)