Subject: ?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2025/10/30/george-r-r-martins-copyright-lawsuit-against-openai-gains-traction-in-court/

?The Hollywood Reporter reports that the copyright infringement lawsuit
filed by George R.R. Martin and other book authors against OpenAI has
taken a favorable turn for the plaintiffs. A recent ruling by a federal
court has advanced two additional theories of infringement, bolstering
the authors? case against the AI company.?

?The lawsuit, which is part of the first wave of AI copyright cases,
revolves around three main arguments. Firstly, the authors claim that
OpenAI?s training of AI models on copyrighted books constitutes
infringement. Secondly, they allege that the company engaged in the
practice of pirating books from shadow libraries, regardless of whether
these books were used for training purposes. Lastly, the plaintiffs
argue that the answers generated by ChatGPT, OpenAI?s chatbot, are substantially similar to the books on which they were trained.?

?U.S. District Judge Sidney Stein permitted the separation of the shadow library and training theories, stating that the fact that many
allegations in the prior class complaints suggested the ultimate purpose
of reproduction was to train OpenAI?s LLMs (large language models) were
not conclusive. This decision provides the authors with another path
toward maximizing damages, as statutory damages for copyright
infringement can reach up to $150,000 per infringement.?

?Surprisingly, Judge Stein also concluded that ChatGPT?s answers could potentially infringe upon the books they were trained on. The court
pointed to the chatbot?s summaries of Martin?s A Song of Ice and Fire
series, popularly known as Game of Thrones, with one summary reading,
?Members of the Night?s Watch, a sworn brotherhood tasked with defending
the realm from threats beyond the Wall (a giant ice structure in the
North), are attacked by mysterious and deadly creatures known as the
White Walkers, thought to be mere legends.? The court stated that a
reader could easily conclude that this detailed summary is substantially similar to the original work.?

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s copyright ? I think not.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: "George R.R. Martin's Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court"

Lynn McGuire wrote:

<snipped to appease eternal september's spamassassin>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s copyright ? I think not.

When writing THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE Thomas Jefferson sought to simulate the style of Satan's speeches in PARADISE LOST by Milton. It's
not plagiarism proper per se, but it's something similar. Tom Kratman
used to do the same sort of thing here. He channeled the styles of other authors to flame with flair.
In my naivety, AI's Large Language Models seemed suitable to set up
a side-by-side stylistic schema between the THE DECLARATION and
PARADISE LOST. It never happened. Instead AI spewed out generalities.
Apparently AI always answers, even when it's ignorant of the
subject matter. (RAH said Plebes are expected to always answer
upperclassmen at West Point, no? If so, it sounds superlatively stupid.)
One thing led to another in my search for a side-by-side. Eventually
Noam Chomsky's methodology showed up as a potential solution. It then
became clear to give it up due to my lack of the requisite skill set.

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: "George R.R. Martin's Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court"

Lynn McGuire wrote:

<snipped to appease eternal september's spamassassin>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s
copyright ? I think not.

Such lawsuits will only have a chance of success until the courts are
fully digitised.

(I haven't read the article and am only being a smart arse.)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 31/10/25 17:50, Don wrote:

Lynn McGuire wrote:

<snipped to appease eternal september's spamassassin>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s
copyright ? I think not.

When writing THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE Thomas Jefferson sought to simulate the style of Satan's speeches in PARADISE LOST by Milton. It's
not plagiarism proper per se, but it's something similar. Tom Kratman
used to do the same sort of thing here. He channeled the styles of other authors to flame with flair.
In my naivety, AI's Large Language Models seemed suitable to set up
a side-by-side stylistic schema between the THE DECLARATION and
PARADISE LOST. It never happened. Instead AI spewed out generalities.
Apparently AI always answers, even when it's ignorant of the
subject matter. (RAH said Plebes are expected to always answer
upperclassmen at West Point, no? If so, it sounds superlatively stupid.)
One thing led to another in my search for a side-by-side. Eventually Noam Chomsky's methodology showed up as a potential solution. It then
became clear to give it up due to my lack of the requisite skill set.

Five blind AI's meet an elephant.......

There are umpteen different AI options available on the web. It is only
natural that their quality will differ but AI is often referred to as
one entity as if they are all equal, (an illusion that most USAian's
believe of themselves).

--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Titus G wrote:

Don wrote:

Lynn McGuire wrote:

<snipped to appease eternal september's spamassassin>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s
copyright ? I think not.

When writing THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE Thomas Jefferson sought to
simulate the style of Satan's speeches in PARADISE LOST by Milton. It's
not plagiarism proper per se, but it's something similar. Tom Kratman
used to do the same sort of thing here. He channeled the styles of other
authors to flame with flair.
In my naivety, AI's Large Language Models seemed suitable to set up
a side-by-side stylistic schema between the THE DECLARATION and
PARADISE LOST. It never happened. Instead AI spewed out generalities.
Apparently AI always answers, even when it's ignorant of the
subject matter. (RAH said Plebes are expected to always answer
upperclassmen at West Point, no? If so, it sounds superlatively stupid.)
One thing led to another in my search for a side-by-side. Eventually
Noam Chomsky's methodology showed up as a potential solution. It then
became clear to give it up due to my lack of the requisite skill set.

Five blind AI's meet an elephant.......

There are umpteen different AI options available on the web. It is only natural that their quality will differ but AI is often referred to as
one entity as if they are all equal, (an illusion that most USAian's
believe of themselves).

You are absolutely accurate about AI options. As far as my fellow
citizens - God only knows what they believe.
For my own peace of mind, AI is kept at arms-length to mitigate
the 5GW surveillance state. Keeping things vague by using the
generic term "AI" is part of my opsec.

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 21:50:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

<snippo>

?The lawsuit, which is part of the first wave of AI copyright cases, >revolves around three main arguments. Firstly, the authors claim that >OpenAI?s training of AI models on copyrighted books constitutes >infringement. Secondly, they allege that the company engaged in the
practice of pirating books from shadow libraries, regardless of whether >these books were used for training purposes. Lastly, the plaintiffs
argue that the answers generated by ChatGPT, OpenAI?s chatbot, are >substantially similar to the books on which they were trained.?

<and snippo to the comment>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s >copyright ? I think not.

Book reviewers are covered by fair use. Which does not encompass
copying entire books into the review (I suspect).

But it would be infringement (I suspect) if one asked the AI for a
/review/ and it instead produced /the entire work/.

On another newsgroup, we heard complaints from a person who had
laboriously restructured one of JRRTs works into a different format.
(I forget the details.) The Estate successfully claimed it would
infringe if publshed and they would not approve it.

He was advised by another person who had had a similar experience to
do what that person had done: include so much of his own material that
the JRRT bits were "incidental" and so satisfied "fair use".

OTOH, if they regularly used online libraries of /illegal copies/ of
books, then they may have committed copyright infringement regardless
of whether they used them for training purposes or not. At $150K per occurrence.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 19:51:57 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:

On 31/10/25 17:50, Don wrote:

Lynn McGuire wrote:

<snipped to appease eternal september's spamassassin>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the

author?s

copyright ? I think not.

When writing THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE Thomas Jefferson sought

to

simulate the style of Satan's speeches in PARADISE LOST by Milton.

It's

not plagiarism proper per se, but it's something similar. Tom Kratman
used to do the same sort of thing here. He channeled the styles of

other

authors to flame with flair.
In my naivety, AI's Large Language Models seemed suitable to set

up

a side-by-side stylistic schema between the THE DECLARATION and
PARADISE LOST. It never happened. Instead AI spewed out generalities.
Apparently AI always answers, even when it's ignorant of the
subject matter. (RAH said Plebes are expected to always answer
upperclassmen at West Point, no? If so, it sounds superlatively

stupid.)

One thing led to another in my search for a side-by-side.

Eventually

Noam Chomsky's methodology showed up as a potential solution. It then
became clear to give it up due to my lack of the requisite skill set.

Five blind AI's meet an elephant.......

There are umpteen different AI options available on the web. It is only >natural that their quality will differ but AI is often referred to as
one entity as if they are all equal, (an illusion that most USAian's
believe of themselves).

And if legally-binding restrictions (ie, applications of copyright
law) are found to apply, each and every AI that violates one or more
of them will makes its owners liable for legal action.

Oh, and /criminal/ copyright infringement can include time in jail.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 13:29:56 -0000 (UTC), "Don" <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

<snippo>

For my own peace of mind, AI is kept at arms-length to mitigate
the 5GW surveillance state. Keeping things vague by using the
generic term "AI" is part of my opsec.

If you honestly believe you can avoid surveillance if it is actually
targetting you, you are insufficiently paranoid.

When you accept that this is not possible, then you are sufficiently
paranoid and can stop worrying about it and get on with your life
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

On 10/31/2025 11:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 21:50:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

<snippo>

?The lawsuit, which is part of the first wave of AI copyright cases,
revolves around three main arguments. Firstly, the authors claim that
OpenAI?s training of AI models on copyrighted books constitutes
infringement. Secondly, they allege that the company engaged in the
practice of pirating books from shadow libraries, regardless of whether
these books were used for training purposes. Lastly, the plaintiffs
argue that the answers generated by ChatGPT, OpenAI?s chatbot, are
substantially similar to the books on which they were trained.?

<and snippo to the comment>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s
copyright ? I think not.

Book reviewers are covered by fair use. Which does not encompass
copying entire books into the review (I suspect).

But it would be infringement (I suspect) if one asked the AI for a
/review/ and it instead produced /the entire work/.

On another newsgroup, we heard complaints from a person who had
laboriously restructured one of JRRTs works into a different format.
(I forget the details.) The Estate successfully claimed it would
infringe if publshed and they would not approve it.

He was advised by another person who had had a similar experience to
do what that person had done: include so much of his own material that
the JRRT bits were "incidental" and so satisfied "fair use".

OTOH, if they regularly used online libraries of /illegal copies/ of
books, then they may have committed copyright infringement regardless
of whether they used them for training purposes or not. At $150K per occurrence.

I am getting a lot of downloads of the five software manuals and the
marketing materiel that my people and I have written over the long
years. 1,500 pages of highly technical info, I am surprised that the AI programmers find it useful.
https://www.winsim.com/doco.html
and
https://www.winsim.com/newsletters.html

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Paul S Person wrote:

Don wrote:

<snippo>

For my own peace of mind, AI is kept at arms-length to mitigate
the 5GW surveillance state. Keeping things vague by using the
generic term "AI" is part of my opsec.

If you honestly believe you can avoid surveillance if it is actually targetting you, you are insufficiently paranoid.

When you accept that this is not possible, then you are sufficiently
paranoid and can stop worrying about it and get on with your life

During his first run, Trumped loved wikileaks when it supplied plenty of
ammo courtesy of Podesta and Hillary's email leaks. Trump's tune changed
after the Vault 7 leak and "West Point mafioso" Pompeo convinced Trump
to physically remove Assange. If memory serves, somewhere deep in the
bowels of Vault 7, a couple of agents kvetch about how Germanic paranoia instinct interferes with intelligence gathering.

OH VEY, SHUT IT DOWN

... It's kind of a warning, When the product's free there's
something else they're taking ...

(excerpt)

<https://rumble.com/v3w7qn6-oy-vey-shut-it-down-2023.html>

--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. veritas _|_ telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,. liberabit |
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.' vos |


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 14:10:26 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

On 10/31/2025 11:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 21:50:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

<snippo>

?The lawsuit, which is part of the first wave of AI copyright

cases,

revolves around three main arguments. Firstly, the authors claim that
OpenAI?s training of AI models on copyrighted books constitutes
infringement. Secondly, they allege that the company engaged in the
practice of pirating books from shadow libraries, regardless of

whether

these books were used for training purposes. Lastly, the plaintiffs
argue that the answers generated by ChatGPT, OpenAI?s chatbot, are
substantially similar to the books on which they were trained.?

<and snippo to the comment>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the

author?s

copyright ? I think not.

Book reviewers are covered by fair use. Which does not encompass
copying entire books into the review (I suspect).

But it would be infringement (I suspect) if one asked the AI for a
/review/ and it instead produced /the entire work/.

On another newsgroup, we heard complaints from a person who had
laboriously restructured one of JRRTs works into a different format.
(I forget the details.) The Estate successfully claimed it would
infringe if publshed and they would not approve it.

He was advised by another person who had had a similar experience to
do what that person had done: include so much of his own material that
the JRRT bits were "incidental" and so satisfied "fair use".

OTOH, if they regularly used online libraries of /illegal copies/ of
books, then they may have committed copyright infringement regardless
of whether they used them for training purposes or not. At $150K per
occurrence.

I am getting a lot of downloads of the five software manuals and the >marketing materiel that my people and I have written over the long
years. 1,500 pages of highly technical info, I am surprised that the AI

programmers find it useful.
https://www.winsim.com/doco.html
and
https://www.winsim.com/newsletters.html

Perhaps they find the grammar and syntax so good that it helps.

Or maybe they just don't care.
--
"Here lies the Tuscan poet Aretino,
Who evil spoke of everyone but God,
Giving as his excuse, 'I never knew him.'"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?George R.R. Martin?s Copyright Lawsuit Against OpenAI Gains Traction in Court?

On 11/1/2025 10:46 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

On Fri, 31 Oct 2025 14:10:26 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

On 10/31/2025 11:44 AM, Paul S Person wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2025 21:50:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
<lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:

<snippo>

?The lawsuit, which is part of the first wave of AI copyright cases,
revolves around three main arguments. Firstly, the authors claim that
OpenAI?s training of AI models on copyrighted books constitutes
infringement. Secondly, they allege that the company engaged in the
practice of pirating books from shadow libraries, regardless of whether >>>> these books were used for training purposes. Lastly, the plaintiffs
argue that the answers generated by ChatGPT, OpenAI?s chatbot, are
substantially similar to the books on which they were trained.?

<and snippo to the comment>

So does this mean that all book reviewers are infringing the author?s
copyright ? I think not.

Book reviewers are covered by fair use. Which does not encompass
copying entire books into the review (I suspect).

But it would be infringement (I suspect) if one asked the AI for a
/review/ and it instead produced /the entire work/.

On another newsgroup, we heard complaints from a person who had
laboriously restructured one of JRRTs works into a different format.
(I forget the details.) The Estate successfully claimed it would
infringe if publshed and they would not approve it.

He was advised by another person who had had a similar experience to
do what that person had done: include so much of his own material that
the JRRT bits were "incidental" and so satisfied "fair use".

OTOH, if they regularly used online libraries of /illegal copies/ of
books, then they may have committed copyright infringement regardless
of whether they used them for training purposes or not. At $150K per
occurrence.

I am getting a lot of downloads of the five software manuals and the
marketing materiel that my people and I have written over the long
years. 1,500 pages of highly technical info, I am surprised that the AI
programmers find it useful.
https://www.winsim.com/doco.html
and
https://www.winsim.com/newsletters.html

Perhaps they find the grammar and syntax so good that it helps.

Or maybe they just don't care.

Hah, the joke is on him. Our manuals and marketing materials are
written in typical programmerese.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)