On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
I wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d" (stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:someone
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 21:25:09 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
<snippo -- WiFi attack on heat pump>
Some attacks just aren't worth the effort - have you *ever* heard of
someone doing this?
I have heat pumps - one is controlled by short range IR remotes, and
the other by a wall panel.
I would not put them on WiFi, but not because I'm worried about
Things'futzing with the temperature. I'm suspicious of the 'Internet of
WiFidevices made by companies with zero notion of security. There are
'smart bulbs' that will leak your WiFi password.
I spent too long in the cybersecurity world to attach random devices
to my network.
Now /here/ is something on the topic of interest to me that makes
sense.
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
The one on the wall panel gets cranked up and down a bit - it's
for my bedroom as well as my office, and I prefer to sleep warmer
than I like it during the day.
The other is in the family room, and I tend to economize whan I'm
not in there.
So, they do get changed, but WiFi would be overkill.
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically. There were repors of this being used tofind houses which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling. Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak. Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling
or washing) in similar times. This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools
from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
On 2025-10-24 05:32:26 +0000, Stephen Harker said:
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both to
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
Those look like they're the wrong way around ... unless you like
freezing in winter and baking in sumer. :-)
I rarely turn it on in summer as it takes three days of high 30's or
40's (C) to warm up enough to require cooling in Melbourne.
In winter I usually turn it off during the day when at work and
manually turn it on in winter when it is cool enough to warrant it.
I could program it to come on in the afternoon to bank solar, but
usually am back in time to do so.
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac computers >>>>> leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow internet or >>>>> then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra to get >>>>> an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older Mac >>>>> computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners and >>>> has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health' system: A >>>> patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple were >>>> prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace
batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically. There were repors of this being used tofind houses which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling. Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak. Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling
or washing) in similar times. This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
This is similar to my phone/internet bill: I got an email some time
back (and a letter yesterday) stating that they will be split so I
will get and have to pay two bills a month /starting in October/, and
yet my October bill (payment due 10/28/25) had both still combined.
Maybe the November bill will come in two parts ... maybe they meant
October 26 ... who can say until it happens?
At least I will finally see how the various fees, taxes, and other
petty annoyances are divided between the two!
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by
the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.ÿ There were repors of this being used tofind houses which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.ÿ Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak.ÿ Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling
or washing) in similar times.ÿ This is laragely to bank the solar when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have, although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed one that we know of.
On 2025-10-24 16:05:43 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>>
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow
internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra >>>>>> to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older >>>>>> Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its
owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health'
system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple >>>>> were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace >>>>> batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives >>>>> with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money
than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Apple has created a few connection port technologies over the years, including being a co-creator of USB-C. Some formats became popular and widely used, others didn't.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
That was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars because there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.ÿ There were repors of this being used tofind houses which >>>> were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.ÿ Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to heat in >>>> the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid
power is on non-peak.ÿ Some also progarm other devices (heating/cooling >>>> or washing) in similar times.ÿ This is laragely to bank the solar when >>>> at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter. Does it have a digital display which is flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc. If so, it is a smart meter. If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
On 2025-10-24 16:05:43 +0000, Cryptoengineer said:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote: >>>>
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
computers
leaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow
internet or
then-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra >>>>>> to get
an external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older >>>>>> Mac
computers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its
owners and
has the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health'
system: A
patient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple >>>>> were
prosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily replace >>>>> batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives >>>>> with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money
than Musk?
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Apple has created a few connection port technologies over the years, including being a co-creator of USB-C. Some formats became popular and widely used, others didn't.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
That was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars because there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.?ÿ There were repors of this being used tofind houses
which
were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for
burgling.?ÿ Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to
heat in
the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and the grid >>>>> power is on non-peak.?ÿ Some also progarm other devices (heating/
cooling
or washing) in similar times.?ÿ This is laragely to bank the solar
when
at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because
it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates
("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and
one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy
demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see
it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.ÿ Does it have a digital display which is
flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.ÿ If so, it is a smart meter.ÿ If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little plastic window has become discoloured and clouded over the years.ÿ :-)
On 25/10/25 15:52, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100, sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters used by >>>>>> the power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.?ÿ There were repors of this being used tofind houses >>>>>> which were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target for >>>>>> burgling.?ÿ Like most I have my heat-pump hot water progrmmed to
heat in the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good and >>>>>> the grid power is on non-peak.?ÿ Some also progarm other devices
(heating/ cooling or washing) in similar times.?ÿ This is laragely to >>>>>> bank the solar when at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill because >>>>> it may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two periods/rates >>>>> ("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation and >>>>> one (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off): heavy >>>>> demand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to see >>>>> it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do have,
although we've had the house since new and nobody actually installed
one that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.? Does it have a digital display which is
flashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.? If so, it is a smart meter.? If it has the five or
six analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little plastic
window has become discoloured and clouded over the years.ÿ :-)
If it is not possible to see the meter, then your power company will be getting its information from your smart meter which they think you have.
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
On Wed, 22 Oct 2025 17:19:06 +1300, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com>
computers
On 22/10/25 16:13, Your Name wrote:
much snippage
According to Mr Google:
I was joking previously when I suggested you were sexist.
Apple even stupidly left out the floppy drive from their iMac
internet orleaving users now way to transfer files (other than the slow
to getthen-hugely expensive USB thumb drives) - people had to pay extra
Macan external floppy drive just to retain functionality of the older
andcomputers.
Apple's only reason for existence is to return profits to its owners
system: Ahas the same philosophy as the USA insurance-triaged 'health'
werepatient totally cured is a source of income lost. A perfect product
means no more income from that customer. Do you remember that Apple
replaceprosecuted for software that caused the need to unnecessarily
than Musk?batteries? Was it Apple selling the thumb drives and external drives
with proprietary plugs? Is Apple stupid because it has less money
That's the best takedown of Modren Medicine I have seen in a long
while. As practiced in the USA, that is; if you live somewhere else,
YMMV.
But as others have noted, the proprietary plugs were not a factor.
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out >compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then >refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
On 10/24/2025 6:08 PM, Your Name wrote:
becauseThat was always going to be yet another issue with electric cars
there was no standard and no industry dicsussion int he race to be
"first", so each company stupidly made their own system.
Yet another Shit On Stuff I Know Nothing About post from this guy....
In North America, over the past few years, pretty much every company
which sells EVs has announced cutting over to the NACS connector:
SAE standard J3400. So, yes, there's a standard. Mitsubishi is the
only holdout.
NACS is basically the Tesla connector, which proved far easier to
use, and has a larger installed base of public chargers, than any
other in the US. Older non-Teslas used CCS1 or CHAdeMO. There
are adapters available to let them use the Tesla Supercharger
network.
In Europe and Oceania, CCS2 is the standard.
In Japan, CHAdeMO.
In China, GB/T
Adapters are available for most combinations.
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows aftercould
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I
never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
I wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that
letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d"
(stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
Personally I am happy with a decent HD screen on the TV but lately asthe
weather undergoes changes I am lucky to have one good channel out of
over 50.
On 10/24/2025 12:27 PM, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 23 Oct 2025 09:37:02 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo to bit I didn't respond to before>
3D in every form has never really been popular, partly thanks to
needing silly glasses of one type or another. There are new computer
monitors that do 3D without needing glasses, which might move up to
bigger TV screens, but again it's really just a gimmick to part fools >>>from their money, and there will be hardly any actual content to watch
(other than perhaps a re-release of the few awful old 3D movies, like
"Jaws 3D").
/Consumer Reports/ reviewed HDTVs which could play "3d" (stereoscopic)
movies without glasses, This works by putting each image out on
alternate lines. Kind of like interlacing, although I do not recall if
that was actually used.
Their report was that this worked -- but, of course, resolution was
halved and so the result was clearly inferior.
It did occur to me that doing this with a 4K TV would produce 2K
resolution, which might work acceptably. It should go without saying
that such a set would play non-"3d" (stereoscopic) movies at 4K
(upscaled if necessary). I don't recall if a special player was
needed.
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
When was this? Time shifting TV has been legal for over 40 years:
From Wikipedia:
"Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417
(1984), also known as the "Betamax case", is a decision by the Supreme
Court of the United States which ruled that the making of individual
copies of complete television shows for purposes of time shifting does
not constitute copyright infringement, but can instead be defended as
fair use."
On 2025-10-24 05:32:26 +0000, Stephen Harker said:to
Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> writes:
On 24/10/25 10:35, Cryptoengineer wrote:
On 10/23/2025 12:14 PM, Paul S Person wrote:snip
If it is true that the temps are intended to be "set once, leave
forever", I think the entire issue becomes ... moot.
Friends who have underfloor heating as well as heat pumps, set both
20 degrees Centigrade when their house was built three years ago and
have left it at that temperature ever since.
I set mine at 18 C for winter and 27 C for summer.
Those look like they're the wrong way around ... unless you like
freezing in winter and baking in sumer. :-)
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use
Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
On 2025-10-25 04:05:10 +0000, Titus G said:sjharker@aussiebroadband.com.au
On 25/10/25 15:52, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-25 00:47:46 +0000, Lynn McGuire said:
On 10/24/2025 5:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-24 16:53:03 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 07:16:04 +1100,
used by(Stephen Harker) wrote:
Cryptoengineer <petertrei@gmail.com> writes:
<snippo>
My concern is information on usage. We have smart power meters
tofind housesthe power companies to get usage information and so bill more
automtically.?ÿ There were repors of this being used
forwhich were not occupied (on trips away for example) and so target
progrmmed toburgling.?ÿ Like most I have my heat-pump hot water
andheat in the period 1000 to 1500 hours where solar should be good
other devicesthe grid power is on non-peak.?ÿ Some also progarm
is laragely to(heating/ cooling or washing) in similar times.?ÿ This
becausebank the solar when at a maximum.
I am eagerly (OK, that's satire) awaiting my next power bill
periods/ratesit may reflect a new scheme where they charge for electricity
depending on the time of day it is used.
The notice was very interesting: it /talked/ about two
and("light use" and "heavy use"), but it showed a chart with /three/
colors on it: one (11PM--5PM, say -- this is from memory) for low
demand, one (5PM -- 8PM, again, from memory) with no explanation
heavyone (8PM-11PM, again, from memory) for high demand.
But three periods make sense (even if my time frames are off):
seedemand for cooking dinner, less heavy for watching TV, light for
everything else.
What will really happen is unclear at this point. I will have to
have,it to even have a chance of figuring it out.
Our electricity company offers "free days" (I think it is three per
year, plus you can 'buy' more using their loyalty scheme rewards
points). You of course need a smart meter, which they say we do
installedalthough we've had the house since new and nobody actually
isone that we know of.
Go look at your power meter.? Does it have a digital display which
five orflashing various things like instantaneous power demand, cumulative
power demand, etc.? If so, it is a smart meter.? If it has the
plasticsix analog dials then it is not a smart meter.
Lynn
It's not possible to see the meter, unless I open the cabinet (I've
never bothered to look to see how it opens), because the little
bewindow has become discoloured and clouded over the years.ÿ :-)
If it is not possible to see the meter, then your power company will
have.getting its information from your smart meter which they think you
Or the meter reader person simply opens the cabinet to read the meter.:-)
As above, I've never bothered or needed to look at how it opens.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 09:43:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows after
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I could >> never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
So did I, but I never fooled myself that I wasn't violating the
Copyright Law. Or did the Courts rule this to be Reasonable Use?
Recording the whole program, with commercials (presumably), to be seen
again later again and again and again if one wanted to?
I had some hard-to-find movies on such tapes for some time before
replacing them. I think they all came out on VHS, but any that did not
were replaced with DVDs when they came out on DVD.
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I wrote them a letter covering the first point and pointing out that
letterboxing was not done to fit the screen, but rather to satisfy the
market for films that were actually all there instead of being cut off
on the sides. I, myself, replaced many P&S VHS films with LB VHS films
(and then with LB DVDs) because I only buy films I really want to see,
and I really want to see the entire film, not just the "important"
bits P&S presents. This included an essay on aspect ratios which I
will spare you all.
I also suggested they find someone who actually understood this stuff
to do the tests/reviews in the future.
So it is possible that they did, in fact, find people who had at least
some idea of what was going on and the review of TVs able to play
"3d" (stereoscopic) films without special glasses was written by them.
And the claim that the reduced resolution actually mattered when "3d"
(stereoscopic) films were watched may have been based on actual
comparison testing and not just "the resolution is halved, that /must/
be a problem" thinking.
I should have pointed out that this would been in the late 90s/early
00s, as I stop subscribing to /Consumer Reports/ after they insisted
on limited online access without additional payment, would not
consider a higher subscription price which would include the web-site,
and, oh yes, started treating us as "customers" with "accounts"
instead of Members of the Consumer's Union.
My last annual issue (a summary of the preceding year, and a
convenient reference as it was a PB book not a magazine issue) was 2/3
the size of the year before, and mostly descriptive articles as
opposed to articles with ratings. To get the ratings, you had to go
online. And pay extra.
Personally I am happy with a decent HD screen on the TV but lately as the
weather undergoes changes I am lucky to have one good channel out of
over 50.
It sounds like you are using an antenna. How quaint.
Have you considered using a computer and a web browser? Several offer
TV shows, organized in channels with fixed start times. I just checked
Plex and it does, so other free streaming services probably do as
well. Not 50 channels, perhaps, but then not mostly in a language you
don't understand or religious (unless you choose that category)
either.
Judging from the films I have occasionally streamed from them, there
are lots of ads. But what is TV without advertising?
I long ago realized that (at least at that time) the advertisements
often had higher production values and were more entertaining than the programs, after all.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 12:05:43 -0400, Cryptoengineer
<petertrei@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/23/2025 10:32 PM, Titus G wrote:
On 23/10/25 04:28, Paul S Person wrote:
Perhaps you are thinking of IBM in the pre-PC days, when competitors
were kept busy matching the new proprietary plugs IBM kept coming up
with. Or so I recall having read in the far distant past.
My recollection is of having read in the far distant past that it was
Apple that used non standard interfaces/plugs. Maybe it was only their
phones?
The term 'Connector Conspiracy' was originally applied to IBM big iron,
back in the 60s and 70s. It was thought to be an attempt to shut out
compatible products, but making unique, patented connectors, and then
refusing to license them.
Apple certainly had unique 'Lightning' connectors up until just a few
years ago. The EU forced all cell phones to use USB-C, and now that's
the standard.
Don't get me started on EV power connectors....
And the Tandy 1000 I purchased back in the late 80s had a parallel
port that required a special connector. That was, IIRC, toward the end
of "our PC must be unique even though we sell it as an IBM PC clone
idiocy".
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
On 10/25/2025 10:54 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that
timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many
infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I didn't have that problem with Doctor Who as it aired on our PBS
station. On the other hand, Babylon 5 was on UPN (and then CW) and the
local station would show the Orlando Magic basketball home games,
preempting whatever was normally shown. So start it at normal time and
let it run.
On Fri, 24 Oct 2025 09:43:07 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 10/24/25 09:27, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo>
And this presumes that /Consumer Reports/ took the appropriate steps
when I wrote into them about their first DVD player article. This had
two problems:
1. It complained that it could not record, thus showing that the
Consumer's Union believed each and every one of its members was in
intentional and frequent violation of the copyright laws by recording
over-the-air programming. IOW, it thought we were all thieves.
2. It asserted that P&S (pan-and-scan) films were for older 4:3 TVs,
while LB (letterboxed) films were for 16:9 HDTVs.
No they though we were all time shifters i.e. watching shows after
the broadcast time. I used to do that but i figured out eventually I could >> never find enough time to watch all the interesting sounding stuff.
So did I, but I never fooled myself that I wasn't violating the
Copyright Law. Or did the Courts rule this to be Reasonable Use?
Recording the whole program, with commercials (presumably), to be seen
again later again and again and again if one wanted to?
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use
Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
On 10/25/2025 10:54 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
OTOH, for a while I recorded six hours starting at midnight every
Sunday. I did this because Dr Who would appear at some point in that
timeframe. When it appeared varied because it depended on how many
infomercials they had been able to sell air time to and when the
owners of those wanted them to be seen.
I didn't have that problem with Doctor Who as it aired on our PBS
station. On the other hand, Babylon 5 was on UPN (and then CW) and the
local station would show the Orlando Magic basketball home games,
preempting whatever was normally shown. So start it at normal time and
let it run.
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
Do they actually say it uses WiFi? According to this >https://envocore.com/blog/how-do-smart-meters-communicate/
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are not
only smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of the
day, after all.
But those who opted out do still have their meters read manually --
for an extra fee. Well,/somebody/ has to pay the meter-readers'
salaries.
But that doesn't mean yours, even if smart, is connected via WiFi.
Although that would solve the "can't read the thing through the
window" problem.
Do they actually say it uses WiFi? According to
this>https://envocore.com/blog/how-do-smart-meters-communicate/
<snippo text>
According to <https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/in-the-community/current-projects/advanced-metering-installations#frequentlyaskedquestions>,
which looks very similar to what I got when this first happened and
may, indeed, be more of an historical document (note reference to
masks, social distancing, and COVID) than a current project, it uses "wireless advanced meter[s]".
Guess what the "Wi" in "WiFi" stands for?
Of course it doesn't use my local WiFi network; it may not even use a
"WiFi" network or protocol as such. So your quote may be quite
correct, keeping in mind that the network used is still wireless.
Indeed, IIRC, it was attacked in part as being part of the switch to (cellular) 5G networks, which were said to rot the brain or something.
I don't pay a lot of attention to this sort of nonsense.
Note that I am not waving my arms around and claiming that "WiFi" had
a more general meaning. I am content to point out that my main point
was that the smart readers installed here were wireless and so does
not need to be read by an employee.
The article also has the cost of keeping an old meter and having it
read. The start date was March 2021, so this was some time back.
we do have a smart meter,
but I don't know when it was installed. We certainly never asked for one
nor ever paid for it to be 'upgraded' (other than being included in the standard, ever-increasing electricity prices).
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
we do have a smart meter, but I don't know when it was installed. We
certainly never asked for one nor ever paid for it to be 'upgraded'
(other than being included in the standard, ever-increasing electricity
prices).
It is slightly surprising after such inane verbosity claiming a
profundity of ignorance with regard to your meter's housing or
existence, that you now concede that you do have a smart meter in
agreement with your power company which you hate because it keeps
increasing prices.
An elderly aunt of mine tells of how in her youth she could buy an ice
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof
and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
I would touch anything Tesla made with a bazillion mile barge pole. It's
a garbage company, with garbage products, run by a drug-addled lunatic.
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
If HP actually gave a damn about reliability they would first of all
fix their firmware bugs but secondly they would let end-users install
random disks in order to make last-minute workarounds.
All HP cares about is taking my money. They are not really HP any
more.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
And we turn as much of that stuff off because it usually reduces
reliability of a standalone system. Can be a big win in the virtual
system world, but that is not my world.
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even
bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
Well that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic electrical
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:an
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But >>>>whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:not
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:25:22 -0500, Jay Morris <morrisj@epsilon3.me>
wrote:
On 10/25/2025 11:10 AM, Paul S Person wrote:
Locally, Seattle City Power converted us some years back. Ours are
theonly smart, they are/connected/. Using WiFi, of course. That is how
they plan to tell how much power we are using during each part of
band,day, after all.
How did we get onto smart meters? Smart meters use the 900 MHz ISM
not 2.4 GHz, because they want the added range. The ones in our areause
a fairly primitive interrogate-reply protocol at 1200bps.
This wasn't about smart meters inititally, it was about homethermostats,
and many of them DO use wifi to link to the furnace as well as to allow >people to control the temperature and schedule from their phones.
Two differnet ISM band applications, two different protocols, twodifferent
ISM bands.--
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart meters
didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We never asked
for a smart meter and we were never told one had been installed, so we
had no idea we did now have a smart meter. Presumably the power company
went around installing them (without notice for some silly reason) at
some point so they could save on wages and fuel costs of having real
people employed as meter readers.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:an
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be =
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But >>>>>whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be >>>>>specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is >>>>>unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get >>>>checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a >>>>SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=3D20 >>>>servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about >>>>desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=3D20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP
Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>>> option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it
back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. But
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem --
HP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays,
redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
That's the question here, after all.
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive
to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an even >>> bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy
the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
Well that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic electrical
Pretty much everything 'Your Name' wrote is just plain wrong.
- Massively expensive to install. Incorrect. My 7.5kw panels have
paid for themselves in less than five years, and now _make_ money,
and will continue to do so for the next two decades.
- Provide very little power. While there are some geographical
areas with better insolation, solar panels even generate power on
cloudy days, albeit less than on a sunny day.
- Constant cleaning. Depends on climate, rain will wash most of
the dust off. I clean mine once a year during the dry season.
- I get wholesale rates for offsetting generation, and near-wholesale
for excess generation (yes, the power companies are greedy, and for
new connections, the excess generation isn't compensated as well as
mine).
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:an
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>> Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be =
option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>> back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. ButHP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem -- >>>>>
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=3D20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=3D20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>> redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
I don't understand your question. All disk drives have standard
interfaces (IDE, SATA, SCSI, SAS, FC) and are compatable with all
enclosures that provide a standard interface. The issue with HP
systems is that the system adds a requirement that only certain drives
are qualified to work with their on-board disk management software and
boot firmware (formerly known as BIOS); purely a software issue - the hardware interface is bog-standard.
I've never had an issue with any hard drive working with any suitable enclosure (or even with no enclosure), absent defects in the hard drive itself (e.g. crashed heads).
On 10/27/25 08:14, Paul S Person wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2025 16:19:44 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2025 12:09:22 -0400 (EDT), kludge@panix.com (Scott
Dorsey) wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
Well, except perhaps for HP. I am wondering what to do with the HP >>>>>> Envy drive: since the power button died, I had no opportunity to use >>>>>> Eraser on it. Removing it and putting it into an enclosure would be an >>>>>> option -- and give me another 2TB drive unless I decided to put it >>>>>> back in the HP Envy and buy another drive for the enclosure. ButHP and Dell have some model drives with special firmware that get
whether this would work or whether the drive would turn out to be
specially manufactured for HP and not work with an encloure is
unclear. I /have/ read reports indicating that this is a problem -- >>>>>
checked by the bios, which will refuse to accept non-native drives.
The HP drives will work on other machines, but if you want to put a
SATA drive on the HP machine it has to be HP-branded. HP Gen9=20
servers are like this, Gen8 and Gen7 are not. I know nothing about
desktops but I know far too much about HP.
That's encouraging.=20
Note that the systems Scott is referring to are high-end servers,
not home user systems. The high-end servers from HP, DELL,
et alia. are designed for high availability, hot spares and
long life. That means that they often provide modified disk
drive firmware (or contract with the disk manufacturer to add
capabilities to the standard firmware) which is used for various
RAS[*] reasons. The servers generally have a dozen hot-plug drive bays, >>> redundant power supplies, and hot-plugable CPU cards.
[*] Reliability, Availability and Serviceability.
Datacenters have thousands of these servers, mostly managed
remotely (aside from an on-site technician to manually swap
drives or CPUs, or replace a power supply). The UEFI
firmware is significantly different from consumer grade hardware
and is key to the RAS support.
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
That's the question here, after all.
As along as you match up the drive and interface in the purchased box
you should have no problems. That is if the drive is ide you have to have an
ide to USB interface. Or if a SATA drive then a SATA to USB interface.
I have assemble my own external drives for years but it is easier now than
when it was 50 pin scsi to 50 pin scsi.
The only caveat I can see it that you have to use anti-static measures to avoid component damage.
bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2025.10 Linux 6.12.55-pclos1- KDE
Plasma 6.5.0
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter. Presumably
the power company went around installing them (without notice for some
silly reason) at some point so they could save on wages and fuel costs
of having real>people employed as meter readers.
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
On 2025-10-27 14:31:29 +0000, Scott Lurndal said:
Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> writes:
On 10/26/25 19:35, Your Name wrote:
On 2025-10-27 00:52:44 +0000, Titus G said:
On 27/10/25 11:15, Your Name wrote:
snip
Solar panels are somewhat of a con trick - they're massively expensive >>>> to install, provide very little power unless you live in a very sunny
place, need constant cleaning to remain efficient as possible, and
eventually wear out and then need expensive replacement. There's an
even
bigger con trick where buyers are told the electricity company will buy >>>> the 'spare' power generated by their solar panels - but most power
companies either pay very little for that extra power or aren't
interested at all in buying it.
ÿÿÿÿWell that is when the state steps in to force the monopolistic
electrical
Pretty much everything 'Your Name' wrote is just plain wrong.
ÿ - Massively expensive to install.ÿÿ Incorrect.ÿÿ My 7.5kw panels have
ÿÿÿ paid for themselves in less than five years, and now _make_ money,
ÿÿÿ and will continue to do so for the next two decades.
ÿ - Provide very little power.ÿÿÿ While there are some geographical
ÿÿÿ areas with better insolation, solar panels even generate power on
ÿÿÿ cloudy days, albeit less than on a sunny day.
ÿ - Constant cleaning.ÿÿ Depends on climate, rain will wash most of
ÿÿÿ the dust off.ÿÿ I clean mine once a year during the dry season.
ÿ - I get wholesale rates for offsetting generation, and near-wholesale
ÿÿÿ for excess generation (yes, the power companies are greedy, and for
ÿÿÿ new connections, the excess generation isn't compensated as well as
ÿÿÿ mine).
It wasn't "wrong", although it does depend on where you are. Some places
are better than others for any one or more of those problems,b ut they
are real problems with solar panels.
I did forget one problem ... solar panels look damn ugly. This creates another problem, since some people don't want to see the panels on their house from the road or from certain rooms, they put the panels in less
than ideal locations, which of course again means less power generated.
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as >electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
In article <10dmfof$d3a9$1@dont-email.me>, Titus G <noone@nowhere.com> wrote:
An elderly aunt of mine tells of how in her youth she could buy an ice
cream (in a cone) for one (yes,1), penny. Whilst not as effective as
electricity powered air conditioning, an ice cream in summer's heat is
more pleasurable. Nowadays, electricity is far cheaper and not so
fattening so you really are getting a bargain. You would be happier if
you realised this or if you want more than just happiness, perhaps great
joy, put solar panels on the roof and install a Tesla Powerwall Battery.
If I had the choice of giving up ice cream or giving up air conditioning,
I would definitely give up air conditioning. Ice cream will serve you
well when there is no air conditioning, but when there is no ice cream,
air conditioning is no substitute.
Today's ice cream is chocolate hazelnut swirl. With homemade swirl that
is much less sweet than Nutella.
--scott
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter.
Presumably the power company went around installing them (without
notice for some silly reason) at some point so they could save on
wages and fuel costs of having real>people employed as meter readers.
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect. At worst you could run an aerial cable along side the pipe and
up onto the house's roof (of course, that would be easiest with houses
being built or major rennovations).
* "Box" is a relative term. It doesn't have a base and is simply slid
over the water meter as protection from weather, mowers, etc. Now that
the weather here is getting less wet, I'll have to remember to go out
and dig out our meter box so I can bury it a little deeper - the plumber repair a minor mains leak recently didn't re-bury the box proerpy, so it
now sticks up above the ground level.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
We had that. Because of the mains leak, the estimated amount directly
after the repair had been done was higher than it should have been.
Lukckily the water company here gives refunds for quickly repaired mains leaks outside the house when you provide them with proof from a
registered plumber.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not generally present at the water company valve box.
On 28/10/25 12:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
Probably less than half New Zealand homes are metered for water.
Auckland, the largest city, is metered. There is a separate water charge
on annual Council rates where water is not metered.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >>> generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services (along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not >>> generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services >(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
In article <10do7ti$oss$1@panix2.panix.com>,USB-to-SATA
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> wrote:
So, is a hard drive from a plebeian home system likely to work inside
a plebeian hard drive enclosure purchased on Amazon?
Yes. All of those enclosures pretty much use the same three
time,chipsets.
I do urge you to get an enclosure that supports USB3 if you value your
however.
--scott
As I recall, copying my data back from a 4T drive after a OS re-install
was a several day task.
I did forget one problem ... solar panels look damn ugly. This creates >another problem, since some people don't want to see the panels on
their house from the road or from certain rooms, they put the panels in
less than ideal locations, which of course again means less power
generated.
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway).
The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly
notaccess them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is
generally present at the water company valve box.
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
anyway).Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses
quicklyThe boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can
notaccess them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is
generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the
power to deal with the radio device.
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered for
the smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water services >(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
On 2025-10-28 00:08:37 +0000, Your Name said:wireless
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a
anyway).signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses
quicklyThe boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can
is notaccess them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that
forgenerally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the >>> power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered
servicesthe smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water
(along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly close together
anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
Or, even easier, just put the smart meter inside the house where the
mains supply enters the building. (External garden taps might be a
problem if the pipes branch off befoer entering the house.)
On 10/27/2025 5:09 PM, Your Name wrote:readers.
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 15:35:15 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
<snippo>
As I said (twice) we have owned the house since new and smart
meters>didn't even exist when it was built, so didn't have one. We
never asked for a smart meter and we were never told one had been
installed, so we had no idea we did now have a smart meter.
Presumably the power company went around installing them (without
notice for some silly reason) at some point so they could save on
wages and fuel costs of having real>people employed as meter
anyway).
They told us about it in 2021, as I noted in another post.
And they also allowed an opt-out, for a fee to pay for having someone
come out and read it.
Cutting down on meter readers should have slowed down the rate
increases a bit.
But different cultures do things different ways.
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here --
because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless
signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses
quicklyThe boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can
andaccess them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect. At worst you could run an aerial cable along side the pipe
up onto the house's roof (of course, that would be easiest with houses
being built or major rennovations).
* "Box" is a relative term. It doesn't have a base and is simply slid
over the water meter as protection from weather, mowers, etc. Now that
plumberthe weather here is getting less wet, I'll have to remember to go out
and dig out our meter box so I can bury it a little deeper - the
itrepair a minor mains leak recently didn't re-bury the box proerpy, so
mainsnow sticks up above the ground level.
Which is a pity, because mis-read/estimated water meters can cause
billing problems.
We had that. Because of the mains leak, the estimated amount directly
after the repair had been done was higher than it should have been.
Lukckily the water company here gives refunds for quickly repaired
leaks outside the house when you provide them with proof from a
registered plumber.
Our water meter has a small black box sitting on top of it which is a >wireless interface. I believe they just slowly drive down to street
pinging each one.
On Mon, 27 Oct 2025 23:05:45 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is not
generally present at the water company valve box.
On Tue, 28 Oct 2025 18:45:48 +1300, Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com>
wrote:
On 2025-10-28 00:08:37 +0000, Your Name said:
On 2025-10-27 23:27:42 +0000, Bobbie Sellers said:
On 10/27/25 16:05, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> writes:
On 2025-10-27 15:36:44 +0000, Paul S Person said:
This is unlikely to happen with water meters -- at least here -- >>>>>>> because they are mostly buried in the ground and getting a wireless >>>>>>> signal out might be difficult.
Most water meters here are in boxes* in the garden (for houses anyway). >>>>>> The boxes have an easily removeable lid so the meter reader can quickly >>>>>> access them to read the dial numbers. Technically it should be
relatively easy to either have a cellular / wi-fi meter that can
connect.
Technically, such radio device would require power, something that is >>>>> not generally present at the water company valve box.
Easily if expensively remedied with a inline turbine to generate the >>>> power to deal with the radio device.
bliss
Or simply a wire from the house mains supply, appropriately lowered
services>> (along with ye olde landline phone) are often fairly closethe smart meters' power requirement of course. Power and water
together>> anyway to save on digging multiple trenches.
Or, even easier, just put the smart meter inside the house where
mains supply enters the building. (External garden taps might be
problem if the pipes branch off befoer entering the house.)
Up here, that would rather confuse the distinction between "City
Utilities' responsibility" and "homeowner's/landlord's"
responsibility.
Then again, there /is/ a simple shut-down where the water enters our
house. For use when needed, obviously.
The houses around here have two shut-off points - one in the water
meter box and another where water pipe enters the house (usually behind
a panel in the garage's external wall). That's how we were able to out
our leak was somewhere in the short pipe between the meter and the
house, and not inside the house itself.
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