<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
Actors did not enjoy the best of reputations. Originally, IIRC, this
was because they were always lying about who they were.
One of the tales in /The Desert Fathers/ (I think) features an actor
who descended to that low rung of society when the armed robber band
he had been in tossed him out and nobody else would take him in.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
Actors did not enjoy the best of reputations. Originally, IIRC, this
was because they were always lying about who they were.
One of the tales in /The Desert Fathers/ (I think) features an actor
who descended to that low rung of society when the armed robber band
he had been in tossed him out and nobody else would take him in.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
The film /Bridge on the River Kwai/ does something like that. The book
/King Rat/ goes a bit farther.
And I'm not even going to mention /Mrs. Doubtfire/ and other films
that play with the idea but aren't really the same thing.
Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from >>>> something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
In Aubrey's "Brief Lives" he mentions one daring theatre manager who
allowed women to play on stage circa 1660.
In the comedy "Upstart Crow" Kate aspires to be an actress but only
succeeds once by disguising herself as a boy. I recall figuring out
that if Kate were real, she'd have been about 85 before being allowed on
the stage.
On 7/9/25 09:04, Paul S Person wrote:from
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
=20
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably =
the=20something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
=20
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
=20
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor=20
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.=20
Sarah Bernhart in the 19th and early 20th Century.
=20
Actors did not enjoy the best of reputations. Originally, IIRC, this
was because they were always lying about who they were.
Well before actors started acting in Christian dramas they were wed to
the mystery plays of the pagan cults of the Romans. So that prejudiced =
ecclesiastic arm against them.
KabukiOne of the tales in /The Desert Fathers/ (I think) features an actor
who descended to that low rung of society when the armed robber band
he had been in tossed him out and nobody else would take him in.
=20
In some British actor's recent memoir that=20
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
The film /Bridge on the River Kwai/ does something like that. The book
/King Rat/ goes a bit farther.
=20
And I'm not even going to mention /Mrs. Doubtfire/ and other films
that play with the idea but aren't really the same thing.
But it ws done in Japan as well where the actresses that originated =
were barred from perforing and the roles given to males. The actresses =were
demeaned with the world prostitute as were female actors when they =started
working on the stage.
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 15:24:33 -0700, Bobbie Sellers
Well before actors started acting in Christian dramas they were wed to >> the mystery plays of the pagan cults of the Romans. So that prejudiced the >> ecclesiastic arm against them.
I think the problem went back a lot further. Perhaps back to the
Athenians or before. Or perhaps not.
Shakespeare is the nearest the decent western chappie can get to life-affirming gentle paganism; so Shakespeare has to be hated by the monotheistic bigots - or set at the extreme limit of their tolerance.
Arindam has improved his sonnets by translating them to Bengali.
Woof-woof woof woof woof-woof
Bertietaylor
--
On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 0:25:42 +0000, Bertitaylor wrote:
Shakespeare is the nearest the decent western chappie can get to
life-affirming gentle paganism; so Shakespeare has to be hated by the
monotheistic bigots - or set at the extreme limit of their tolerance.
Arindam has improved his sonnets by translating them to Bengali.
He is the best.
Woof
Woof-woof woof woof woof-woof
Bertietaylor
--
--
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:26:51 +0000, Bertietaylor wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 0:25:42 +0000, Bertitaylor wrote:
Shakespeare is the nearest the decent western chappie can get to
life-affirming gentle paganism; so Shakespeare has to be hated by the
monotheistic bigots - or set at the extreme limit of their tolerance.
Arindam has improved his sonnets by translating them to Bengali.
He is the best.
Over the flecks of foam I have seen you roam
When the moon did light the path between You and me
Aphrodite Aphrodite Aphrodite...
Anything in Shakespeare to beat that?
WOOF woof-woof woof woof-woof
Woof
Woof-woof woof woof woof-woof
Bertietaylor
--
--
--
On 7/9/25 09:04, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from >>>> something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
Sarah Bernhart in the 19th and early 20th Century.
Actors did not enjoy the best of reputations. Originally, IIRC, this
was because they were always lying about who they were.
Well before actors started acting in Christian dramas they were wed to the mystery plays of the pagan cults of the Romans. So that prejudiced the ecclesiastic arm against them.
One of the tales in /The Desert Fathers/ (I think) features an actor
who descended to that low rung of society when the armed robber band
he had been in tossed him out and nobody else would take him in.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
The film /Bridge on the River Kwai/ does something like that. The book
/King Rat/ goes a bit farther.
And I'm not even going to mention /Mrs. Doubtfire/ and other films
that play with the idea but aren't really the same thing.
But it ws done in Japan as well where the actresses that originated Kabuki
were barred from perforing and the roles given to males. The actresses were demeaned with the world prostitute as were female actors when they started working on the stage.
bliss
On 11/07/2025 1:38 p.m., Bertietaylor wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 23:26:51 +0000, Bertietaylor wrote:
On Mon, 7 Apr 2025 0:25:42 +0000, Bertitaylor wrote:
Shakespeare is the nearest the decent western chappie can get to
life-affirming gentle paganism; so Shakespeare has to be hated by the
monotheistic bigots - or set at the extreme limit of their tolerance.
Arindam has improved his sonnets by translating them to Bengali.
He is the best.
Over the flecks of foam I have seen you roam
When the moon did light the path between You and me
Aphrodite Aphrodite Aphrodite...
Demis Roussos?
Anything in Shakespeare to beat that?
WOOF woof-woof woof woof-woof
Woof
Woof-woof woof woof woof-woof
Bertietaylor
--
--
--
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast,
since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
The film /Bridge on the River Kwai/ does something like that. The book
/King Rat/ goes a bit farther.
And I'm not even going to mention /Mrs. Doubtfire/ and other films
that play with the idea but aren't really the same thing.
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
On Wed, 9 Jul 2025 15:24:33 -0700, Bobbie Sellers <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
On 7/9/25 09:04, Paul S Person wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jul 2025 23:28:38 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from >>>>> something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
I don't think its a problem here, either, except, of course, that
being 13 they are very excitable.
Young teenagers with swords duelling in the streets -- what could
possibly go wrong?
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
I believe Hamlet remarks on the hope that a boy actor's voice hasn't
yet changed. At some point, the idea of having female actors caught
on. IIRC, there was at least one female who played Hamlet. And was
very effective in the role.
Sarah Bernhart in the 19th and early 20th Century.
Actors did not enjoy the best of reputations. Originally, IIRC, this
was because they were always lying about who they were.
Well before actors started acting in Christian dramas they were wed to >> the mystery plays of the pagan cults of the Romans. So that prejudiced the >> ecclesiastic arm against them.
I think the problem went back a lot further. Perhaps back to the
Athenians or before. Or perhaps not.
And this was in Egypt, so it would have been "pagan cults of the
Greeks".
They were always lying about who they were, of course, because they
were always claiming to be someone else while on stage. Although
nobody seems to really care about lying nowadays, in the past it was a
/very/ serious thing to be accused of.
One of the tales in /The Desert Fathers/ (I think) features an actor
who descended to that low rung of society when the armed robber band
he had been in tossed him out and nobody else would take him in.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
The film /Bridge on the River Kwai/ does something like that. The book
/King Rat/ goes a bit farther.
And I'm not even going to mention /Mrs. Doubtfire/ and other films
that play with the idea but aren't really the same thing.
But it ws done in Japan as well where the actresses that originated Kabuki
were barred from perforing and the roles given to males. The actresses were >> demeaned with the world prostitute as were female actors when they started >> working on the stage.
I have never claimed that prejudice and discrimination are unique to
Western Europe. In fact, I have, from time to time, denied it.
On 09/07/2025 10:14 PM, William Hyde wrote:
=20In Aubrey's "Brief Lives" he mentions one daring theatre manager who
allowed women to play on stage circa 1660.
That - the Restoration - was when actresses were first tolerated. It was=
16662 when Charles II Charles II issued royal patents to theatre=20 >companies, formally permitting women to play women=92s roles.
<https://www.folger.edu/blogs/shakespeare-and-beyond/the-first-english-a= ctresses/>--=20
On 15/07/2025 19:26, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 01:07:01 +0100, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com>
wrote:
On 09/07/2025 10:14 PM, William Hyde wrote:
<snippo>
In Aubrey's "Brief Lives" he mentions one daring theatre manager who
allowed women to play on stage circa 1660.
That - the Restoration - was when actresses were first tolerated. It was >>> 16662 when Charles II Charles II issued royal patents to theatre
companies, formally permitting women to play women’s roles.
In the film /Moliere/, women are shown as performers. This was in
France and Charles II was in exile in France. The possibility here is
that he allowed it because he was accustomed to it.
<https://www.folger.edu/blogs/shakespeare-and-beyond/the-first-english-actresses/>
I know nothing about actresses in France at that time but...
A film??
Are we to take films as reliable sources of historical data?
On 7/8/2025 6:28 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
On 08/04/2025 16:49, Paul S Person wrote:
<snippo Shakespeare examples of what the alt-right calls "woke">
<I should note that is has always been my understanding (probably from
something I was told or read) that Romeo and Juliet would have been
about 13, but who can say for sure?>
I seem to remember that in several U.S. states,
that isn't a problem.
However, "Juliet" originally is a boy actor
in a dress. This could be brought up.
In some British actor's recent memoir that
I heard on radio, I've forgotten who, the
school drama was similarly cast, since that's
all that they had. I also don't remember if
he was Juliet or Cleopatra or Lady Macbeth,
but apparently the male lead role was a
good-looking young man.
Ian McKellen?
Gregory Doran?
Last night, I watched an episode of 'The Sandman'
in which there is included parts of a
Shakespeare-contemporaneous production of 'A
Midsummer Night's Dream' The female parts are
played by young men.
I know this is historically accurate, but I don't
remember seeing it done this way in any other modern
film or TV adaption.
On 15/07/2025 19:26, Paul S Person wrote:was
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 01:07:01 +0100, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com>
wrote:
=20
On 09/07/2025 10:14 PM, William Hyde wrote:=20
<snippo>
=20
In Aubrey's "Brief Lives" he mentions one daring theatre manager who
allowed women to play on stage circa 1660.
That - the Restoration - was when actresses were first tolerated. It =
16662 when Charles II Charles II issued royal patents to theatre=20
companies, formally permitting women to play women=92s roles.
In the film /Moliere/, women are shown as performers. This was in
France and Charles II was in exile in France. The possibility here is
that he allowed it because he was accustomed to it.
=20
= <https://www.folger.edu/blogs/shakespeare-and-beyond/the-first-english-ac= tresses/>
I know nothing about actresses in France at that time but...
A film??
Are we to take films as reliable sources of historical data?
On Tue, 15 Jul 2025 22:33:06 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
On 15/07/2025 19:26, Paul S Person wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jul 2025 01:07:01 +0100, JNugent <JNugent73@mail.com>
wrote:
On 09/07/2025 10:14 PM, William Hyde wrote:
<snippo>
In Aubrey's "Brief Lives" he mentions one daring theatre manager who >>>>> allowed women to play on stage circa 1660.
That - the Restoration - was when actresses were first tolerated. It was >>>> 16662 when Charles II Charles II issued royal patents to theatre
companies, formally permitting women to play women’s roles.
In the film /Moliere/, women are shown as performers. This was in
France and Charles II was in exile in France. The possibility here is
that he allowed it because he was accustomed to it.
<https://www.folger.edu/blogs/shakespeare-and-beyond/the-first-english-actresses/>
I know nothing about actresses in France at that time but...
A film??
Are we to take films as reliable sources of historical data?
That depends, I suppose, on the film.
And only as support for a suggestion, of course.
Even if you include Jane Austen, Agatha Christie and Charlotte Bronte
you KNOW that's not what the sort of people who used that term
ACTUALLY mean.
I would have no problem if people grouped Shakespeare with people like
Dumas, Zola, Camus, Rousseau, Dosteyevsky, Tolstoy etc. but you know
as well as I do that "part of a community of equal and different
writers and artists from around the world" DOESN'T in 2025 mean "more
dead white males" - or even ANY white males.
Dumas is a "dead white male"? (dead, yes, male, yes).
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