xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
˙˙ https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !˙ However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a computer, just on a mobile device),
˙˙˙ https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !˙ However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a computer, just on a mobile device), the pipes are installed inside of
˙˙˙ https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !˙ However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
the insulation (which it says can be challenging since the neighbor
could come home at any time).
On 08/06/2025 00:51, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a=20
=A0=A0=A0 https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !=A0 However, if their=20
insulation is real good then it won=92t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-=20
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
computer, just on a mobile device), the pipes are installed inside of=20
the insulation (which it says can be challenging since the neighbor=20
could come home at any time).
I use the third-party "Explain xkcd" site, ><https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>
A day after the expected publication dates -
this time, I'd forgotten.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their=20
insulation is real good then it won=92t work.
Explained at:mp
=20
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-Source_Heat_Pu=
Lynn--=20
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it ! However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 14:25:47 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/06/2025 00:51, Ted Goldblatt wrote:
On 6/7/2025 5:46 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat PumpPer the "title" text (which I don't can't seem to get to display on a=20 >>> computer, just on a mobile device), the pipes are installed inside of=20 >>> the insulation (which it says can be challenging since the neighbor=20
=A0=A0=A0 https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !=A0 However, if their=20
insulation is real good then it won=92t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-=20
Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
could come home at any time).
I use the third-party "Explain xkcd" site, >><https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page>
A day after the expected publication dates -
this time, I'd forgotten.
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they
claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they
claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor. That's the 'free' part.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
On 6/8/2025 1:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they
claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor.˙ That's the 'free' part.
Given Seattle's climate it's more than likely that the electricity used running the heat pump year-around will cost less than what the oil costs
for heating alone.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Less dishonest than most marketing.
On 6/8/2025 3:41 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 6/8/2025 1:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they >>>> claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor.˙ That's the 'free' part.
Given Seattle's climate it's more than likely that the electricity
used running the heat pump year-around will cost less than what the
oil costs for heating alone.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Less dishonest than most marketing.
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.˙ Expensive and dirty.
Lynn
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Yes, we have #2 Fuel Oil, which is like a poor quality diesel. It's not >filtered very well and it has a lot more varnish-making stuff in it. But >overall composition is similar but it's not as well-refined.
It burns way cleaner than maritime HFO, but it's still very dirty compared >with burning natural gas or propane.
Some people will use #1 Fuel Oil which is thicker and burns less cleanly, >especially in rural areas. It has more sulfur in it than diesel or #2.
Occasionally you will see apartment buildings and other places with big >boilers that burn #6 fuel oil which is the cheapest and stinkiest alternative. >It's thick enough that they don't use it in really cold climates though.
And it's still less nasty than HFO.
On 6/8/2025 3:41 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 6/8/2025 1:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they >>>> claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor.˙ That's the 'free' part.
Given Seattle's climate it's more than likely that the electricity
used running the heat pump year-around will cost less than what the
oil costs for heating alone.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Less dishonest than most marketing.
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.˙ Expensive and dirty.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Yes, we have #2 Fuel Oil, which is like a poor quality diesel. It's not filtered very well and it has a lot more varnish-making stuff in it. But overall composition is similar but it's not as well-refined.
It burns way cleaner than maritime HFO, but it's still very dirty compared with burning natural gas or propane.
Some people will use #1 Fuel Oil which is thicker and burns less cleanly, especially in rural areas. It has more sulfur in it than diesel or #2.
On 6/8/2025 9:18 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
On 6/8/2025 3:41 PM, Mark Jackson wrote:
On 6/8/2025 1:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they >>>>> claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor.˙ That's the 'free' part.
Given Seattle's climate it's more than likely that the electricity
used running the heat pump year-around will cost less than what the
oil costs for heating alone.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Less dishonest than most marketing.
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.˙ Expensive and dirty.
Lynn
We had heat pumps installed in our 1840's house a few years ago.
Getting whole-house AC was a huge bonus to reducing our heating bill.
I'm in New England, and it can get well below zero in winter, so
we've retained the older oil heating system (but shut down the
original four fireplaces), for when it gets too cold for the pumps.
pt
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
Yes, we have #2 Fuel Oil, which is like a poor quality diesel. It's not filtered very well and it has a lot more varnish-making stuff in it. But overall composition is similar but it's not as well-refined.
It burns way cleaner than maritime HFO, but it's still very dirty compared with burning natural gas or propane.
Some people will use #1 Fuel Oil which is thicker and burns less cleanly, especially in rural areas. It has more sulfur in it than diesel or #2.
Occasionally you will see apartment buildings and other places with big boilers that burn #6 fuel oil which is the cheapest and stinkiest alternative.
It's thick enough that they don't use it in really cold climates though.
And it's still less nasty than HFO.
--scott
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 8 Jun 2025 14:25:47 +0100, Robert Carnegie
<rja.carnegie@gmail.com> wrote:
Referring to <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_source_heat_pump>
An "air to air heat pump" provides heating
or cooling. In Scotland we mostly talk
about home heating, but on a few days in
a year, indoors is too hot. But I think
the hear pumps we're offered are for heating
only. But I do share a wall with the
nearest neighbour...
Seattle has been pushing heat pumps to replace oil furnaces for at
least one and probably two decades or so. One of the "advantages" they >>claim for them is "free air conditioning".
This, of course ignores two factors:
1. If heat pumps that do not also cool are available and cost less,
the A/C is not "free" but part of the purchase price.
Your predicate isn't true, so your conclusion doesn't follow.
2. In any case, since heat pumps run on electricity, the A/C is not
"free" at all.
However, the compressor required for air conditioning comes with
all heat pump furnaces, so the user doesn't need to purchase a
separate compressor. That's the 'free' part.
and suggests that the push to heat pumps is a bit ... dishonest.
Not at all.
Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> schrieb:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever. Expensive and dirty.
What qualities of oil are used in the US for heating?
Here in Germany, it is a light fuel oil, pretty much identical to
Diesel (they add dye to it to make sure it isn't used in vehicles
because the two are taxed differentiy). It is also low on sulphur,
if that is what you were referring to. Plus, emission limits are
pretty strict and checked anually.
https://store.astm.org/d0396-21.html
Lynn McGuire wrote:
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20 >presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >the change.
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.˙ Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I
presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with
the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
And his getting up in the middle of the night to restock the furnace
so it would be warm when we got up in the morning.
I don't actually remember playing in the coal pile (in the "coal
room", currently in use as a storage room), but I do remember my Mom
getting upset when I did.
Ah, the days of my (early) youth!
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >.html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20 >>presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >>the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still >remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >> .html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis
of other papers) is here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?via%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of the 60 year-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
It's useful to consier that reversing the trend towards
higher carbon concentration in the atmosphere doesn't necessarily
require elimination of all fossil fuels, but rather reduction to
a point significantly low enough to cause the atmospheric carbon
fraction to decrease. So it is entirely feasible that there will
always be some homes heated with carbon-intensive sources
(although the price of such sources will likely increase as the
supply diminshes simply due to economies of scale).
The paper doesn't discuss the impact of owned solar (e.g. rooftop
panels) when considering the end-user[*] cost difference between
CH4 and a heat-pump; rooftop solar can significantly reduce the
electricity cost to run the heat pump compressor.
[*] I would guess because the homeowners in the study were all low income
and thus not likely able to afford rooftop solar.
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be rather
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-data
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=A0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. I=20
presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy with=20 >>> the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still
remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
No need to stockpile (fell, buck, cut and split) 10 cords of
oak firewood every year (plenty of trees on the farm). No need
move wood from the woodpile to the basement every couple of
days. No need to go down the rickety narrow steep stairs to feed
the fire a few times a day.
No more frigid winter nights hoping the warm air would reach
the second floor.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:I=3D20
On Mon, 9 Jun 2025 15:56:23 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com> >>wrote:
Lynn McGuire wrote:
<snippo>
Oil for heating is the worst thing ever.=3DA0 Expensive and dirty.
I can recall a large pile of coal outside my school in grade one. =
presume it was the custodian's job to shovel all that into a furnace.
The next fall there was no more coal. I suspect he was very happy = with=3D20
the change.
My parents converted from coal to oil in the early 1950s. I can still >>remember my Da digging the hole for the tank. With a shovel.
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement >replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
No need to stockpile (fell, buck, cut and split) 10 cords of
oak firewood every year (plenty of trees on the farm). No need
move wood from the woodpile to the basement every couple of
days. No need to go down the rickety narrow steep stairs to feed
the fire a few times a day.
No more frigid winter nights hoping the warm air would reach
the second floor.
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-pover= ty=3D
.html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with >>natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis60
of other papers) is here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?= via%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of the=
year-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be rathera
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.=20
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-dat=
Over the years, some owners/renters have had cords of wood delivered.
Most used an axe, but one used a chainsaw.
It was after that started that strange bumps began appearing in our
back yard and then moved to our front yard ... although, like the fall >mushrooms, I don't seem to have seen them in recent years.
On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 21:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
I refer you to this informative article:
https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty= >>> .html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
Of course you don't. It opposes your preferred narrative.
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis
of other papers) is here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?via%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of the 60 >> year-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
Just keep denying the demonstrated reality.
Alternately, find a similar study of the vast majority of homes.
<snippo stuff>
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be rather
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-data
I'm not sure what that is showing: is it just the price in New York
Harbor? Is that supposed to control prices throughout the country?
Examining my records shows prices actually paid 2020-2025:
01/21/20 3.489
11/23/20 3.079
05/04/21 3.639
02/12/22 4.589
12/01/22 5.639
05/08/23 5.079
03/01/24 5.079
01/02/25 4.939
Keep in mind that the Pacific NW is a bit ... isolated ... oil-wise. Basically, we have our own refineries and our costs (including
gasoline for cars) are always a bit higher than elsewhere. Still, the
peak in Dec 22 is consistent with the general trend your link shows.
A few years back, /all/ the refineries were planning to close (for
various reasons) at the same time. One of our Senators suggested they
rethink this, as it would boost gas prices and might be viewed as a
form of illegal collusion.
The irony here, of course, is that, to avoid being charged with
collusion, they had to collude to decide on a staggered schedule of
closures. Such is the gap between theory and reality.
On 6/11/2025 11:13 AM, Paul S Person wrote:Lurndal)
On Tue, 10 Jun 2025 21:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
=20
Paul S Person <psperson@old.netcom.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 08 Jun 2025 17:00:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott =
=3D
I refer you to this informative article:
= https://techxplore.com/news/2024-05-barriers-cold-climates-energy-poverty=
the 60=20.html
Granted, this is from Southeast Michigan and is comparing costs with
natural gas.
I think a study of a handful of 60-year-old homes in one corner of
a northern state is not particularly indicative of a general trend.
Of course you don't. It opposes your preferred narrative.
=20
The actual study (although it is really a partially a meta-analysis
of other papers) is here:
= https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921344924002933?v= ia%3Dihub
The find the median payback is 24 years, including weatherization of =
https://www.macrotrends.net/2479/heating-oil-prices-historical-chart-datayear-old homes. Unattractive to low-income homeowners, thus they=20
recommend government incentives to aid such homeowners.
However, the vast majority of homes, even in Michigan, likely
are either much newer (built after 1975) with better weatherization
or have been weatherized already and would likely benefit from
a heat pump system.
Just keep denying the demonstrated reality.
=20
Alternately, find a similar study of the vast majority of homes.
=20
<snippo stuff>
=20
In your particular case, the price of heating oil can be rather
volatile, peaking at $4.26 in 2022 (currently less than $2.00);
as a fundamentally limited resource, it won't remain that cheap
forever.
=
=20
I'm not sure what that is showing: is it just the price in New York
Harbor? Is that supposed to control prices throughout the country?
=20
Examining my records shows prices actually paid 2020-2025:
=20
01/21/20 3.489
11/23/20 3.079
05/04/21 3.639
02/12/22 4.589
12/01/22 5.639
05/08/23 5.079
03/01/24 5.079
01/02/25 4.939
=20
Keep in mind that the Pacific NW is a bit ... isolated ... oil-wise.
Basically, we have our own refineries and our costs (including
gasoline for cars) are always a bit higher than elsewhere. Still, the
peak in Dec 22 is consistent with the general trend your link shows.
=20
A few years back, /all/ the refineries were planning to close (for
various reasons) at the same time. One of our Senators suggested they
rethink this, as it would boost gas prices and might be viewed as a
form of illegal collusion.
=20
The irony here, of course, is that, to avoid being charged with
collusion, they had to collude to decide on a staggered schedule of
closures. Such is the gap between theory and reality.
In my lifetime, we have dropped from 250+ refineries in the USA in 1980=20
to the present 90. Of course, I am talking about real refineries with=20
30 to 100 unit operations, not the little tea kettles.
The production of crude oil in the USA is probably going to drop in 2026
due to reduced capital investment in oil wells (we are in a oil bust
again since 2009).
The USA natural gas production will meet of all the USA's needs easily
for the next 100 to 200 years as we are flaring about 1/3rd of our
natural gas right now due to lack of customers and/or storage. Most of
the 100% natural gas wells are closed in at this time.
Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> wrote:
The production of crude oil in the USA is probably going to drop in 2026
due to reduced capital investment in oil wells (we are in a oil bust
again since 2009).
When I was a kid, heating oil and heavy oil were byproducts of gasoline manufacture, and when gasoline sales went up, heating oil prices went
down. In the modern age when they have cheap cracking is that still the case?
I can say that commodity lubricating oils are way more pure than they
were when I was a kid. Light machine oil used to have black gunk at the bottom of the can and smelled like gas. Now it has no deposit and no
smell.
The USA natural gas production will meet of all the USA's needs easily
for the next 100 to 200 years as we are flaring about 1/3rd of our
natural gas right now due to lack of customers and/or storage. Most of
the 100% natural gas wells are closed in at this time.
Storage is a big deal. And transport.
--scott
My Uncle (central Wis.) converted from wood to propane in the 70's.
One very large convection furnace (called an octopus) in the basement >replaced with a simple propane furnace with integrated air handler.
explainXKCD is a good website but at the same time it also sucks
"Lynn McGuire"˙ wrote in message news:1022bvl$3c2me$2@dont-email.me...
xkcd: Neighbor-Source Heat Pump
˙˙ https://xkcd.com/3099/
As a thermodynamics specialist, I love it !˙ However, if their
insulation is real good then it won’t work.
Explained at:
https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/3099:_Neighbor-Source_Heat_Pump
Lynn
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