I have always said both the cloud and AI are bad.

I do not use cloud storage persoanlly, so don't be pointing fingers here!

I don't (on purpose anyway) here, either. My guess is that they want the
extra storage that "the cloud" is using for AI and are therefore blaming
cloud users for what is really being caused by increased AI usage... energy
and water usage, etc.

Mike


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Technically speaking, in a closed loop cooling system, there should be minima
waterloss, except for the possibility of increased evaporation due to artifica
heating of your cooling ponds.

Increased energy usage for cloud and AI BAD!
Increased energy usage by forcing everyone to adopt Electric Vehicles GOOD.

Sounds to me like the old adage , "If you think the problem's bad now. Wait'l we solve it!"

I get what you are saying there, except governments and at least some folks
who are pushing electric vehicles are also pushing AI. I suspect that they want to blame "cloud" to free up more energy and IT resources for AI.

So it is "cloud (and general comsumer use) of energy BAD!"
"AI and electric vehicles GOOD!" :D

I don't see how something sitting on a storage device is using up near as
much energy as a CPU-intensive AI process.

With the way big tech is pushing AI I unfortunately expect to be living in
some bad sci-fi story before I shuffle off of this rock.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * You radiate cold shafts of broken glass!
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I have always said both the cloud and AI are bad.

I do not use cloud storage persoanlly, so don't be pointing fingers here!

I don't (on purpose anyway) here, either. My guess is that they want the

>extra storage that "the cloud" is using for AI and are therefore blaming
>cloud users for what is really being caused by increased AI usage... energy
>and water usage, etc.

If I recall this was more about water usage than electricity use but
suggestied that less data stored on servers would reduce the amount
of water needed to cool them. I'd think a big part of the water part
of it would depend on if coolant is recycled or just dumped with new
water coming in to replace it, and where that water is coming from.
Pretty much anything could be used but I suppose if the servers are
in a city then it's a huge waste of clean, processed, drinking water.

I half wonder if people mining Bitcoin aren't a bigger problem
than cloud storage..

Personally, I do use a cloud account for files I need to transfer
between multiple units or files I temporarily park there for others
to download, but I doubt I have 5 meg of total data on there..

---
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Reminds me of the song, "In the Year 2525 (Exordium & Terminus)"

"In the year 5555
Your arms hangin' limp at your sides
Your legs got nothin' to do
Some machine's doin' that for you"

"Now it's been ten thousand years
Man has cried a billion tears"

"In the year 2525, if man is still alive
If woman can survive."

LOL I know that one. ;) The TV show "Futurama" spoofed it several years
ago with "In the Year 252525" during an episode about time travel horribly
gone wrong. :D

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * A restless eye across a weary room...
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I don't (on purpose anyway) here, either. My guess is that they want the

>extra storage that "the cloud" is using for AI and are therefore blaming
>cloud users for what is really being caused by increased AI usage... energy
>and water usage, etc.

If I recall this was more about water usage than electricity use but suggestied that less data stored on servers would reduce the amount
of water needed to cool them. I'd think a big part of the water part
of it would depend on if coolant is recycled or just dumped with new
water coming in to replace it, and where that water is coming from.
Pretty much anything could be used but I suppose if the servers are
in a city then it's a huge waste of clean, processed, drinking water.

I half wonder if people mining Bitcoin aren't a bigger problem
than cloud storage..

IMHO, the folks mining Bitcoin... and running AI servers... would require a
lot more cooling (and therefor water) than cloud storage. Storing files shouldn't really have much of any abnormally high cooling requirements as it
is not a CPU/GPU intensive process.

Also IMHO, they are trying to make "regular people" think they are the
problem in order to free up resources for increased AI use.

Personally, I do use a cloud account for files I need to transfer
between multiple units or files I temporarily park there for others
to download, but I doubt I have 5 meg of total data on there..

I doubt that anything you've described is processor intensive, either. ;)

Mike


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Re: Re: Forget a hosepipe ban
By: Rob Mccart to MIKE POWELL on Tue Aug 19 2025 08:33 am

If I recall this was more about water usage than electricity use but suggestied that less data stored on servers would reduce the amount of water needed to cool them. I'd think a big part of the water part of it would depend on if coolant is recycled or just dumped with new water coming in to replace it, and where that water is coming from. Pretty much anything could be used but I suppose if the servers are in a city then it's a huge waste of clean, processed, drinking water.

The reports make it sound like the water isn't recycled and that the water is "used" by the data center, as if they're talking about continuous use. Whether that's accurate or not, I don't know. You'd think you could cool the water passively and recirculate it, but then you're adding more radiant heat into the environment.

If water is running through a closed system you wouldn't think there'd be an issue with treating it and releasing it back into the water supply, but I'm sure it's not worth the decrease in net shareholder value.
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I half wonder if people mining Bitcoin aren't a bigger problem

>> than cloud storage..

IMHO, the folks mining Bitcoin... and running AI servers... would require a

>lot more cooling (and therefor water) than cloud storage. Storing files
>shouldn't really have much of any abnormally high cooling requirements as it
>is not a CPU/GPU intensive process.

Also IMHO, they are trying to make "regular people" think they are the

>problem in order to free up resources for increased AI use.

Yes, the Gov't likes to blame us for things that allow them to duck
the blame and usually guilt us into letting them charge more for
services without us complaining about it.

I think a lot of the Global Warming stuff is being used so we will
pay more for gasoline, electricity and such without complaint..

NOTE: I'm not saying Globel Warming is not happening, I question
whether we caused it or could do anything to stop it seeing as
it's happened multiple times in the past when there were a lot
fewer people on earth to create it..

The world has had a lot more years (twice as many) without polar
ice caps as with them and 4000 years ago they could grow crops
in England that it is now too Cold to grow..

Global warming or natural correction?

---
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RM> If I recall this was more about water usage than electricity use but
RM> suggestied that less data stored on servers would reduce the amount
RM> of water needed to cool them. I'd think a big part of the water part
RM> of it would depend on if coolant is recycled or just dumped with new
RM> water coming in to replace it, and where that water is coming from.
RM> Pretty much anything could be used but I suppose if the servers are
RM> in a city then it's a huge waste of clean, processed, drinking water.

In the case of water usage, electricity generation and water go hand in hand.

>s water is used for either steam for the turbines, or for cooling. Leaking p
>s or evaperation in the cooling ponds will result in a net loss. So more pow
>= more heat = more water used.

Yes, I was going to mention the other day that a system creating so
much heat it needs to be water cooled also likely makes so much heat
that it couldn't be easily recycled unless there were vast reserves
of it. Much simpler to just dump the hot water and bring in fresh
cooler water.

Also, there are lots of power plants that use water driven turbines
without heat, so much of that here that our power company is called
Ontario Hydro (or Hydro One).

---
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The reports make it sound like the water isn't recycled and that the water is

>sed" by the data center, as if they're talking about continuous use. Whether
>t's accurate or not, I don't know. You'd think you could cool the water passi
>y and recirculate it, but then you're adding more radiant heat into the envir
>ent.

If water is running through a closed system you wouldn't think there'd be an

>ue with treating it and releasing it back into the water supply, but I'm sure
>'s not worth the decrease in net shareholder value.

Yes, I touched on that in a previous message.. I wouldn't think that
water used for cooling would be polluted to any great extent, but
you are still pulling it out of fresh drinking water in same cases
and possibly dumping it into the sewage treatment plants.

---
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I think a lot of the Global Warming stuff is being used so we will
pay more for gasoline, electricity and such without complaint..

NOTE: I'm not saying Globel Warming is not happening, I question
whether we caused it or could do anything to stop it seeing as
it's happened multiple times in the past when there were a lot
fewer people on earth to create it..

Yeah, I get that. Use something that has some truth to it in order to
scare us all into doing something "they" (the government, corporations, or
some mix of the two) want us to. Pretty sure they've tried multiple times
with Global Warming/Climate Change. It seems to have worked in some countries/regions, too.

The world has had a lot more years (twice as many) without polar
ice caps as with them and 4000 years ago they could grow crops
in England that it is now too Cold to grow..

Global warming or natural correction?

The best explanation I have seen was on a PBS special a few years back.
They looked at how the northern regions of Canada, currently mostly frozen, were once rich with plant life. They were quick to point out that this was
the case while these lands were mostly in their current position, and not
from back before the continents shifted to where they are now.

They visited several other areas that used to be much different, showing evidence in the rocks and ice cores of where different cycles began and
ended. The end conclusion was that the Earth has always had these cycles, but that the arrival of man (and more specifically, our adoption of fire, urbanization, and industrialization) has caused these cycles to be more "compact" -- to change more frequently and with greater speed than they used to.

I don't find that difficult to believe.

What I do find difficult to believe is when supposedly expert people claim
that shifts that happened *before* the industrial age were mostly/completely caused by man and not, say, a string of volcanic eruptions (or other
natural phenomenon) that were known to have happened at about the same time.

Mike

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Yes, I was going to mention the other day that a system creating so
much heat it needs to be water cooled also likely makes so much heat
that it couldn't be easily recycled unless there were vast reserves
of it. Much simpler to just dump the hot water and bring in fresh
cooler water.

While they are not a closed system in that they need to account for evaporation, don't many power plants (nuclear and some coal) have cooling towers to cool the water and presumably reuse it?

Mike

* SLMR 2.1a * "Stamp Collection?? Ha-Ha!" - Nelson
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Evaporative cooling towers? Yes, some water can be reused, but by their very name, a vast quantity is lost into the atmosphere due evaporation. A Google search says depending on the system between 1 and 30% is reused.

So much for nuclear power not having any affect on the climate, or global warming.


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been secondary or tertiary. 1) Water and irrigation needs for desert communities such as Las Vegas, California, etc. 2) Flood Control, 3) Power Generation. Which in the case of the Colorado River, the water level is too low to generate power most of the time. So much of the load is still provided
from conventional plants.

It is starting to get too low to provide for #1, too. :(


* SLMR 2.1a * "Gasoline clears my sinuses!" - Fred G. Sanford
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NOTE: I'm not saying Globel Warming is not happening, I question

>> whether we caused it or could do anything to stop it seeing as
>> it's happened multiple times in the past when there were a lot
>> fewer people on earth to create it..

Yeah, I get that. Use something that has some truth to it in order to

>scare us all into doing something "they" (the government, corporations, or
>some mix of the two) want us to. Pretty sure they've tried multiple times
>with Global Warming/Climate Change. It seems to have worked in some
>countries/regions, too.

Yes, part of it is also that what they want us to stop doing is
still good for the planet, so making it sound like it's much more
important that we do these things has a double benefit to the gov't
and for pollution, although we all pay $ for it..

The world has had a lot more years (twice as many) without polar

>> ice caps as with them and 4000 years ago they could grow crops
>> in England that it is now too Cold to grow..

Global warming or natural correction?

The best explanation I have seen was on a PBS special a few years back.

>They looked at how the northern regions of Canada, currently mostly frozen,
>were once rich with plant life. They were quick to point out that this was
>the case while these lands were mostly in their current position, and not
>from back before the continents shifted to where they are now.

They visited several other areas that used to be much different, showing

>evidence in the rocks and ice cores of where different cycles began and
>ended. The end conclusion was that the Earth has always had these cycles, bu
>that the arrival of man (and more specifically, our adoption of fire,
>urbanization, and industrialization) has caused these cycles to be more
>"compact" -- to change more frequently and with greater speed than they used
>to.

I don't find that difficult to believe.

Yes, they can find proof of what was happening thousands of years
ago if they take the time and money to investigate.

As you said, the Canadian arctic (perma-frost) used to be a vast
grassland plus out prairies where most of our crops are grown
used to be Desert thousands of years ago so for that reason I
always use the term Climate Change rather than Global Warming.

There is an excellent book that looks at all this with references
to the real science they use in the book, but the book itself is
a fictional, entertaining story about eco-terrorists written by
Michael Crichton called State of Fear.

That was written in 2004 so some of it may be somewhat outdated
but one thing I recall, I hope correctly, was them talking about
how the ocean levels were rapidly rising, and he pointed out that
there are some inhabited islands where the highest point is only
a few feet above sea level, and they haven't had any problems yet.

Another part was about how any scientists who didn't say exactly
what the Gov't wanted them to say lost their jobs and/or funding.

What I do find difficult to believe is when supposedly expert people claim

>that shifts that happened *before* the industrial age were mostly/completely
>caused by man and not, say, a string of volcanic eruptions (or other
>natural phenomenon) that were known to have happened at about the same time.

Yes, there have been forest fires as long as there have been forests,
long before people, and a good sized volcanic eruption can add a
huge amount of carbon to the atmosphere as well. The amount from
volcanoes is wildly debated online, some say they put out more than
people do and others say only 1% of what people create..

---
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Also, there are lots of power plants that use water driven turbines
without heat, so much of that here that our power company is called
Ontario Hydro (or Hydro One).

Not sure about Canada, but in the US I can not think of any new dam projects

>ng approved anywhere, as there has been a big enviromental backlash with the
>truction of natural habitates creating the lake.

Yes, it's much more difficult to get that approved these days. In some
places where you have a large river with a high falls naturally, they
can go in and just add the trubines with minimal damage, but sites
like that are rare. (Think - the power plant at Niagara Falls..)

That's mainly for big ones though. In Parry Sound, the closest small
town to me, they recently added a power turbine to a good sized
river that was already somewhat dammed many years ago to protect the
area from flooding during spring runoff and storms and such, which
adds some power to the grid.

Hmm.. Checking.. Apparently there was a smaller one there since
1919 that was rebuilt and puts out 3.1 megawatts of power, up
from the original 1.2 MW. But it's a quite small unit, not much
bigger than a couple of 2 car garages.

I've also heard about other Hydro electric plants in Canada that
run unattended with people only occasionally stopping in to check
on them to do whatever maintenance is needed. They have been
running virtually non stop for so long the power coming out of
them has to be converted from 25 cycle to 60 cycle before it can
be put back in the system. We haven't used 25 cycle power here
since the mid 1950's..

---
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That was written in 2004 so some of it may be somewhat outdated
but one thing I recall, I hope correctly, was them talking about
how the ocean levels were rapidly rising, and he pointed out that
there are some inhabited islands where the highest point is only
a few feet above sea level, and they haven't had any problems yet.

I have noticed some social media "articles" (YouTube) where people are
pointing out that islands that should not longer be there still are.

Another part was about how any scientists who didn't say exactly
what the Gov't wanted them to say lost their jobs and/or funding.

This happens now and is a problem. IMHO, things like this help fuel the anti-science conspiracty theorists. People like to point to them like they
are just stupid but, unfortunately, there are often real events that help
fuel their fears.

What I do find difficult to believe is when supposedly expert people claim

>that shifts that happened *before* the industrial age were mostly/completel
>caused by man and not, say, a string of volcanic eruptions (or other
>natural phenomenon) that were known to have happened at about the same time

Yes, there have been forest fires as long as there have been forests,
long before people, and a good sized volcanic eruption can add a
huge amount of carbon to the atmosphere as well. The amount from
volcanoes is wildly debated online, some say they put out more than
people do and others say only 1% of what people create..

Those that want it to be "us" cannot stand the idea that nature might also
be causing some of the issues, just as much as those who want it to be
"nature" cannot stand the idea that we might also be a cause.

Mike


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Yes, I was going to mention the other day that a system creating so

>> much heat it needs to be water cooled also likely makes so much heat
>> that it couldn't be easily recycled unless there were vast reserves
>> of it. Much simpler to just dump the hot water and bring in fresh
>> cooler water.

While they are not a closed system in that they need to account for

>evaporation, don't many power plants (nuclear and some coal) have cooling
>towers to cool the water and presumably reuse it?

Yes, much higher heat there of course. They use the heat created to
cconvert water into steam which drives the power turbines, cooling
things down somewhat at the same time. That steam is then channeled
away and allowed to cool and reconstitute as water to re-use, as
much as possible..

---
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Yes, I touched on that in a previous message.. I wouldn't think that
water used for cooling would be polluted to any great extent, but
you are still pulling it out of fresh drinking water in same cases
and possibly dumping it into the sewage treatment plants.

Even with nuclear power, there should be ZERO polution directly related to th

>ooling system. (but try to get the pulic to buy off on that idea). Now, you
>ght have contamination of the water in the holding ponds or if pulling the wa
> from a slow moving river source, due to increase in water temperature and pa
>genic algea.

Yes, barring other problems it should be fairly clean and is usually
safe. You mainly only hear about the rare accidents that cause big
problems and no one mentiones all the ones working perfectly..

It's like the news.. mostly only bad news hits the front page.. B)

---
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>> Evaporative cooling towers? Yes, some water can be reused, but by their ve
>> name, a vast quantity is lost into the atmosphere due evaporation. A Google
>> search says depending on the system between 1 and 30% is reused.

So much for nuclear power not having any affect on the climate, or global

>warming.

Adding water vapour to the atmosphere shouldn't much affect the
climate in the amounts that would be in play there. It's not like
adding Carbon to the air..

---
* SLMR Rob * Nothing is fool-proof to a talented fool
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The world has had a lot more years (twice as many) without polar

>> ice caps as with them and 4000 years ago they could grow crops
>> in England that it is now too Cold to grow..

Global warming or natural correction?

The best explanation I have seen was on a PBS special a few years back.

>They looked at how the northern regions of Canada, currently mostly frozen,
>were once rich with plant life. They were quick to point out that this was
>the case while these lands were mostly in their current position, and not
>from back before the continents shifted to where they are now.

Also, about 11,000 years ago the Saudi Desert used to be a lush
green land with many lakes and rivers. Things change..
-------

I got distracted yesterday but meant to add to my reply to this message
that it is also much more likely that Climate Change / Global Warming
is just a cycle that the sun goes through every few thousand years.

It's hard to believe / keep in mind that the violent storms and
changes in climate incl., droughts, floods and such are the result
of very tiny changes in the world mean temperature. Looking for exact
numbers online I saw one site saying that the world average temperature
has only gone up by 1.8F degrees in the past 145 years. Even the EPA
itself claims a temperature increase in the USA of only 1.7F degrees
in the past 100 years, and they say the USA is actually warming faster
than the rest of the world, one assumes due to industrial waste heat.

So, it's not the temperature change causing all the problems, it
is the weather systems and altering Jet Stream that is moving
weather (Climate) from one area to another.

To add to all that, once/if the permafrost melts completely it will
release a lot of methane gas that's been trapped under the ice for
hundreds of years (from those old grasslands that got buried there)
which will add a lot more carbon to the air in a hurry unless things
decide to cool off again.

---
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Adding water vapour to the atmosphere shouldn't much affect the
climate in the amounts that would be in play there. It's not like
adding Carbon to the air..

While it is not like adding carbon to the air, it does add fuel for clouds.
Immediately after 9/11, there was a study done on the affect of not having
any airplanes in the sky creating cloud fuel (i.e. their contrails). It
had a greater affect than one would imagine.

Mike


* SLMR 2.1a * Wrinkles only go where smiles have been - Jimmy Buffett
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