• Re: google reads your mail

    From Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson@3:633/10 to All on Wed Sep 16 23:39:35 2026
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    nslookup -type=MX ieee.org

    Non-authoritative answer:

    ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 40, mail exchanger =
    alt3.aspmx.l.google.com
    ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 50, mail exchanger =
    alt4.aspmx.l.google.com
    ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 10, mail exchanger =
    aspmx.l.google.com
    ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 20, mail exchanger =
    alt1.aspmx.l.google.com
    ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 30, mail exchanger =
    alt2.aspmx.l.google.com
    Many organizations have outsourced their email to google. >>>>>>>>>>> There is obviously value in:
    - mapping the relationships between communicating parties >>>>>>>>>>> - reading their correspondence

    Those of us who don't always want our correspondence read
    will find other ways to communicate.
    Or, ensure nothing being said needs to be shielded from prying >>>>>>>>> eyes!

    [A friend used to claim he "had nothing to hide".˙ I noted that >>>>>>>>> he didn't leave his financial statements "lying around"...]

    Email is a postcard -- every hand that it passes through has a >>>>>>>>> chance to read its contents (doubly so if those hands are
    electronic in nature!).

    So let them read about your vacation, unaware of the
    steganographically encoded message in the picture.
    Steganalysis can detect the presence of certain types of hidden/ >>>>>>> encoded data.

    /Can/ does not imply that a run of the mill three letter agency
    stegana-
    lyst will.˙ Now, I admit I do not have any of their tool-kits, so I >>>>>> wouldn't off hand know what they do and don't detect if they start >>>>>> look-
    ing.˙ I am however fairly certain I can devise a method to hide
    infor-
    mation undetectable by the amateur antisteganographer [1].

    Having access to tools and a near-endless stream of data (in digital >>>>> form best suited to such analysis), I wouldn't doubt *someone* has
    already
    considered (and acted upon?) the idea.˙ "Amateurs" likely have neither >>>>> the tools nor the access.

    Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the challenge -- >>>> is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world.˙ But >>>> given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I
    forgot
    which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
    feature.

    Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three
    letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, and >>>> it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.

    Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before.
    It's kind of 50/50 that way.

    [When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to
    customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]

    I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do
    so, but
    you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
    something.

    There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if the >>>>> bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.


    Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few people in >>>> the world would be able to tell you're using English -- or another mod- >>>> ern language -- rather than whatever language it was originally used
    for.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

    None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
    aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.

    There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.

    Dear Bill,

    /Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
    deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
    get to make up your sound values.

    Not a trivial task.

    Are you referring to the decipherment of Linear A? For some light read-
    ing, you can pick /The Code Book/ by Simon Singh from your shelf. Alternatively, a bigger book on the same subject is /The Code Breakers/
    by David Kahn. Those two book should serve as an introductory material
    on the subject, and the former is amusing -- I haven't read the latter
    yet it is still on my shelf; it's a matter of tsundoku. I hope you
    don't need to look that word up, being erudite and all.


    Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work
    on improving your reading comprehension.

    Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a language - it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write down elements
    of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is used to write
    down several.

    You now need to explain and expostulate [1] to yourself why you used the
    the word /none/. You see, I was talking about using Linear A to write
    English, and there are indeed people -- or at least people who claim
    they are -- able to discover it's not the original language but a modern
    one. The books I referred to in the previous paragraph explain how, in practice, such is done with statistical analysis. Even though they're
    not a good introduction to the practicalities of modern cryptanalysis.

    For that, you might want to read /Differential Cryptanalysis on Hash
    Functions: Theory and Practice/ by Tao Xie, and Fanbao Liu; or other
    books on the subject of modern code breaking. I admit I haven't read
    this one either. It's on my tsundoku shelf still.


    My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a junior high school would have much to teach me.

    Well, presumably she could have told you that it's not polite to assume
    nobody can do something, just because you can't.


    American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably wouldn't
    have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did back when I
    was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.

    I take it you were reading /The Decipherment of Linear B/ by John Chad-
    wick. Have you thought about buying yourself the corpus of Linear A,
    and attack the problem heads on?


    Best wishes, and happy reading!

    Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish. I've
    been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and reading
    the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a exemplary
    democracy - would not be a pleasant experience. Occasionally amusing,
    but I'd have to hide my amusement.


    Oh, don't worry about the American juniour [sic] high school, you can
    now study /popular culture/ in universities. I bring you a link to your
    very own University of Texas,


    https://texasconnect.utexas.edu/2025/09/29/swifties-trekkies-and-other-devotees-unite-in-ut-class-rhetoric-of-fandom/

    and I wouldn't know how to react, if I were forced to take such a course
    in this day and age, when I hardly like any of the current crop of popu-
    lar amusements, and mostly read [or listen to] space captain dramas. At
    least that branch of literature still has men in the lead role, and
    manly adventures -- in space.

    Now, if that isn't enough hobbies to get you started, you can always
    create an account at cryptohack.org, and start doing -- in Python --
    instead of reading. I myself only started today, so don't read anything
    from my current low score.

    https://cryptohack.org/user/myrkraverk/

    And for that, I've added comp.lang.python to this discussion. People
    there are welcome to share their Cryptohack profiles, and we can have
    a friendly competition in cryptographic practicalities!


    Best wishes, and happy deciphering!


    [1] Yes, I believe this word fits nicely, even though I'm not entirely
    sure if Merriam Webster is current on the meaning of it.
    --
    Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
    I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 16:51:34 2026
    On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    <snip>

    Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the challenge -- >>>>> is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world. >>>>> But
    given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I
    forgot
    which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
    feature.

    Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three >>>>> letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, and >>>>> it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.

    Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before.
    It's kind of 50/50 that way.

    [When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to
    customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]

    I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do >>>>>>> so, but
    you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
    something.

    There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if the >>>>>> bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.


    Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few
    people in the world would be able to tell you're using English --
    or another modern language -- rather than whatever language it was
    originally used for.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

    None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
    aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.

    There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.

    Dear Bill,

    /Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
    deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
    get to make up your sound values.

    Not a trivial task.

    Are you referring to the decipherment of Linear A?˙ For some light read-
    ing, you can pick /The Code Book/ by Simon Singh from your shelf.

    Why would I bother?

    Alternatively, a bigger book on the same subject is /The Code Breakers/
    by David Kahn.˙ Those two book should serve as an introductory material
    on the subject, and the former is amusing -- I haven't read the latter
    yet it is still on my shelf; it's a matter of tsundoku.˙ I hope you
    don't need to look that word up, being erudite and all.

    My wife had several Japaneses collaborators, and while our house
    contains a lot of her books that I haven't read, I do read every book I
    buy (or at least enough of it to realise that I shouldn't have bought it).

    The nearest that I've got to a book in that area is "Security for
    Computer Networks" ISBN 0 471 90063 by Davies and Price, and I only
    bought it because I'd done a little bit of work with the authors.

    Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work
    on improving your reading comprehension.

    Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a language
    - it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write down
    elements of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is used
    to write down several.

    You now need to explain and expostulate [1] to yourself why you used the
    the word /none/.˙ You see, I was talking about using Linear A to write English, and there are indeed people -- or at least people who claim
    they are -- able to discover it's not the original language but a modern
    one.˙ The books I referred to in the previous paragraph explain how, in practice, such is done with statistical analysis.˙ Even though they're
    not a good introduction to the practicalities of modern cryptanalysis.

    I used the word "none" because anybody using the symbols of Linear A to
    write modern English would have had to have made some arbitrary choices
    about what the symbols represent in modern English.

    For that, you might want to read /Differential Cryptanalysis on Hash Functions: Theory and Practice/ by Tao Xie, and Fanbao Liu; or other
    books on the subject of modern code breaking.˙ I admit I haven't read
    this one either.˙ It's on my tsundoku shelf still.

    I certainly don't want to read either book. I'm interested in
    communicating with people, not with communicating with some people and freezing others out.

    My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a
    junior high school would have much to teach me.

    Well, presumably she could have told you that it's not polite to assume nobody can do something, just because you can't.

    My wife was frequently impolite in just that way. The nobodies in
    question were young kids and most of them acquire particular linguisitc
    skills as they get older that they don't have when young.

    American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably wouldn't
    have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did back when
    I was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.

    I take it you were reading /The Decipherment of Linear B/ by John Chad-
    wick.˙ Have you thought about buying yourself the corpus of Linear A,
    and attack the problem heads on?

    Wrong, as usual. The decipherment of Linear B was in the news back then
    - not as front page news, but in specialist magazines (some of which
    made it even to Tasmania).


    Best wishes, and happy reading!

    Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish. I've
    been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and reading
    the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a exemplary
    democracy - would not be a pleasant experience. Occasionally amusing,
    but I'd have to hide my amusement.


    Oh, don't worry about the American juniour [sic] high school, you can
    now study /popular culture/ in universities.˙ I bring you a link to your
    very own University of Texas,

    https://texasconnect.utexas.edu/2025/09/29/swifties-trekkies-and-other-devotees-unite-in-ut-class-rhetoric-of-fandom/

    It's not mine. My wife got her Ph.D. in Psycholinguistics from the
    University of Texas at Austin, and went on to do as post-doc at MIT
    where she took part in seminars with Noam Chomsky and other
    psycholinguistic heavyweights. Her supervisor at Austin was good value
    but the rest of the faculty was mixed.

    and I wouldn't know how to react, if I were forced to take such a
    course in this day and age, when I hardly like any of the current crop
    of popular amusements, and mostly read [or listen to] space captain
    dramas.˙ At least that branch of literature still has men in the lead role, and
    role, and manly adventures -- in space.

    I started reading science fiction in the late 1950's and later found
    that trying to put science fiction on TV or film dumbed it down to an unacceptable extent. American science fiction does tend to be
    unfortunately right wing. Ken MacLeod is Scottish and knows the
    difference between a Leninist, a Trotskyist and Stalinist which make his
    work less fatuous.
    Now, if that isn't enough hobbies to get you started, you can always
    create an account at cryptohack.org, and start doing -- in Python --
    instead of reading.˙ I myself only started today, so don't read anything
    from my current low score.

    ˙ https://cryptohack.org/user/myrkraverk/

    Why would anybody bother?

    And for that, I've added comp.lang.python to this discussion.˙ People
    there are welcome to share their Cryptohack profiles, and we can have
    a friendly competition in cryptographic practicalities!

    Best wishes, and happy deciphering!

    Why would anybody bother?

    [1] Yes, I believe this word fits nicely, even though I'm not entirely
    sure if Merriam Webster is current on the meaning of it
    "Expostulate" is part of my passive vocabulary. I can't recall ever
    posting the word. I have been know to post "albeit" here, and nobody
    else seems to have. It is evidence that I read too many books as child.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lane W@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 02:43:45 2026
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    <snip>

    Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the
    challenge --
    is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world. >>>>>> But
    given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I >>>>>> forgot
    which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
    feature.

    Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three >>>>>> letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, >>>>>> and
    it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.

    Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before. >>>>>> It's kind of 50/50 that way.

    [When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to >>>>>>> customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]

    I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do >>>>>>>> so, but
    you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
    something.

    There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if >>>>>>> the
    bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.


    Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few
    people in the world would be able to tell you're using English -- >>>>>> or another modern language -- rather than whatever language it was >>>>>> originally used for.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A

    None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
    aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.

    There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.

    Dear Bill,

    /Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
    deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
    get to make up your sound values.

    Not a trivial task.

    Are you referring to the decipherment of Linear A?˙ For some light read-
    ing, you can pick /The Code Book/ by Simon Singh from your shelf.

    Why would I bother?

    Alternatively, a bigger book on the same subject is /The Code Breakers/
    by David Kahn.˙ Those two book should serve as an introductory material
    on the subject, and the former is amusing -- I haven't read the latter
    yet it is still on my shelf; it's a matter of tsundoku.˙ I hope you
    don't need to look that word up, being erudite and all.

    My wife had several Japaneses collaborators, and while our house
    contains a lot of her books that I haven't read, I do read every book I
    buy (or at least enough of it to realise that I shouldn't have bought it).

    The nearest that I've got to a book in that area is "Security for
    Computer Networks" ISBN 0 471 90063 by Davies and Price, and I only
    bought it because I'd done a little bit of work with the authors.

    Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work >>>> on improving your reading comprehension.

    Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a
    language - it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write
    down elements of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is
    used to write down several.

    You now need to explain and expostulate [1] to yourself why you used the
    the word /none/.˙ You see, I was talking about using Linear A to write
    English, and there are indeed people -- or at least people who claim
    they are -- able to discover it's not the original language but a modern
    one.˙ The books I referred to in the previous paragraph explain how, in
    practice, such is done with statistical analysis.˙ Even though they're
    not a good introduction to the practicalities of modern cryptanalysis.

    I used the word "none" because anybody using the symbols of Linear A to write modern English would have had to have made some arbitrary choices about what the symbols represent in modern English.

    For that, you might want to read /Differential Cryptanalysis on Hash
    Functions: Theory and Practice/ by Tao Xie, and Fanbao Liu; or other
    books on the subject of modern code breaking.˙ I admit I haven't read
    this one either.˙ It's on my tsundoku shelf still.

    I certainly don't want to read either book. I'm interested in
    communicating with people, not with communicating with some people and freezing others out.

    My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a
    junior high school would have much to teach me.

    Well, presumably she could have told you that it's not polite to assume
    nobody can do something, just because you can't.

    My wife was frequently impolite in just that way. The nobodies in
    question were young kids and most of them acquire particular linguisitc skills as they get older that they don't have when young.

    American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably
    wouldn't have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did
    back when I was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.

    I take it you were reading /The Decipherment of Linear B/ by John Chad-
    wick.˙ Have you thought about buying yourself the corpus of Linear A,
    and attack the problem heads on?

    Wrong, as usual. The decipherment of Linear B was in the news back then
    - not as front page news, but in specialist magazines (some of which
    made it even to Tasmania).


    Best wishes, and happy reading!

    Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish.
    I've been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and
    reading the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a
    exemplary democracy - would not be a pleasant experience.
    Occasionally amusing, but I'd have to hide my amusement.


    Oh, don't worry about the American juniour [sic] high school, you can
    now study /popular culture/ in universities.˙ I bring you a link to your
    very own University of Texas,

    https://texasconnect.utexas.edu/2025/09/29/swifties-trekkies-and-other-devotees-unite-in-ut-class-rhetoric-of-fandom/


    It's not mine. My wife got her Ph.D. in Psycholinguistics from the University of Texas at Austin, and went on to do as post-doc at MIT
    where she took part in seminars with Noam Chomsky and other
    psycholinguistic heavyweights. Her supervisor at Austin was good value
    but the rest of the faculty was mixed.

    and I wouldn't know how to react, if I were forced to take such a
    course in this day and age, when I hardly like any of the current crop
    of popular amusements, and mostly read [or listen to] space captain
    dramas.˙ At least that branch of literature still has men in the lead
    role, and
    role, and manly adventures -- in space.

    I started reading science fiction in the late 1950's and later found
    that trying to put science fiction on TV or film dumbed it down to an unacceptable extent. American science fiction does tend to be
    unfortunately right wing. Ken MacLeod is Scottish and knows the
    difference between a Leninist, a Trotskyist and Stalinist which make his work less fatuous.
    Now, if that isn't enough hobbies to get you started, you can always
    create an account at cryptohack.org, and start doing -- in Python --
    instead of reading.˙ I myself only started today, so don't read anything
    from my current low score.

    ˙˙ https://cryptohack.org/user/myrkraverk/

    Why would anybody bother?

    And for that, I've added comp.lang.python to this discussion.˙ People
    there are welcome to share their Cryptohack profiles, and we can have
    a friendly competition in cryptographic practicalities!

    Best wishes, and happy deciphering!

    Why would anybody bother?

    That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.

    --
    Everything I fight for leaves a bitter taste
    Everything I cry for laughs into my face
    Everything I scream for barely knows my name
    Everything I'd die for will die just the same

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 23:34:03 2026
    On 17/09/2026 6:43 pm, Lane W wrote:
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
    news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    <snip>

    Why would anybody bother?

    That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.

    It's not all that hostile - I don't call other people assholes, for a
    start. I'd be perfectly happy to register a certain low level hostility towards you, as posting unhelpful negative comments is a depressing
    waste of bandwidth, if not irritating enough to provoke vulgar abuse.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lane W@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 17 08:43:40 2026
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 6:43 pm, Lane W wrote:
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>> news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    <snip>

    Why would anybody bother?

    That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your
    hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.

    It's not all that hostile - I don't call other people assholes, for a
    start. I'd be perfectly happy to register a certain low level hostility towards you, as posting unhelpful negative comments is a depressing
    waste of bandwidth, if not irritating enough to provoke vulgar abuse.

    You remind me of myself when I was a young dog. Taking offense at
    anything new that should approach. Don't go looking for snakes, you
    might find them.

    Have you ever considered how provincial you are way out here in the sticks?

    --
    And I will pray to a big god
    As I kneel in the big church

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 15:36:33 2026
    On 18/09/2026 12:43 am, Lane W wrote:
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 6:43 pm, Lane W wrote:
    Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
    On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
    On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
    On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    <snip>

    Why would anybody bother?

    That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your
    hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.

    It's not all that hostile - I don't call other people assholes, for a
    start. I'd be perfectly happy to register a certain low level
    hostility towards you, as posting unhelpful negative comments is a
    depressing waste of bandwidth, if not irritating enough to provoke
    vulgar abuse.

    You remind me of myself when I was a young dog. Taking offense at
    anything new that should approach. Don't go looking for snakes, you
    might find them.

    Have you ever considered how provincial you are way out here in the sticks?

    Having spent 22 years in England - 11 of them in Cambridge, UK, and 19
    years in the Netherlands, all of them in Nijmegen, I've got a very clear
    idea of what provincial looks like, and I'm equally well aware that I'm
    not "provincial" since I do know what is going on in the wider world.

    My father was in one sense provincial since he spent the critical part
    of his professional life in Burnie, Tasmania (population 15,000 at the
    time).

    It didn't stop him getting an international patent on counter-current continuous cooking, where you convert wood chips into paper pulp by
    letting them fall down through a rising stream of sodium hydroxide.
    solution. We did get international visitors. One was

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Richter_(inventor)

    who'd invented the concurrent continuous digestor that my father
    eventually modified for counter-current operation. Johan had tried for
    some ten years to get it to work counter-current, and his company
    (Kamyr) never paid any royalty on my father's patent, though the
    industry adopted the process very rapidly.

    --
    Bill Sloman. Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 18 22:04:11 2026
    On Fri, 18 Sep 2026 15:36:33 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    It didn't stop him getting an international patent on
    counter-current continuous cooking, where you convert wood chips
    into paper pulp by letting them fall down through a rising stream of
    sodium hydroxide. solution. We did get international visitors. One
    was

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Richter_(inventor)

    who'd invented the concurrent continuous digestor that my father
    eventually modified for counter-current operation. Johan had tried
    for some ten years to get it to work counter-current, and his
    company (Kamyr) never paid any royalty on my father's patent, though
    the industry adopted the process very rapidly.

    But you don?t need to prove something works before getting a patent.

    Thomas Edison put together the first working electric light-bulb. Did
    he get the patent on it? No, because that was already taken by Joseph
    Swan.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bill Sloman@3:633/10 to All on Sun Sep 20 02:25:11 2026
    On 19/09/2026 8:04 am, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Sep 2026 15:36:33 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    It didn't stop him getting an international patent on
    counter-current continuous cooking, where you convert wood chips
    into paper pulp by letting them fall down through a rising stream of
    sodium hydroxide. solution. We did get international visitors. One
    was

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Richter_(inventor)

    who'd invented the concurrent continuous digestor that my father
    eventually modified for counter-current operation. Johan had tried
    for some ten years to get it to work counter-current, and his
    company (Kamyr) never paid any royalty on my father's patent, though
    the industry adopted the process very rapidly.

    But you don?t need to prove something works before getting a patent.

    It's frequently helpful to have a working example. The counter-current continuous digestor was quite a tricky design - which is why Johan
    Richter could never get any of his versions to work - and potential
    users would set set up industrial scale trials.
    '
    The provisional patent I'm working on is a lot simpler, and won't need a working example.

    Thomas Edison put together the first working electric light-bulb. Did
    he get the patent on it? No, because that was already taken by Joseph
    Swan.

    Who'd done quite a much development work as Thomas Edison.

    Both inventors patented much the same invention at much the same time,
    and found it expedient to set up a joint company to exploit them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Swan

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Sat Sep 19 22:03:11 2026
    On Sun, 20 Sep 2026 02:25:11 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 19/09/2026 8:04 am, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

    But you don?t need to prove something works before getting a
    patent.

    It's frequently helpful to have a working example. The counter-current continuous digestor was quite a tricky design - which is why Johan
    Richter could never get any of his versions to work - and potential
    users would set set up industrial scale trials.

    What exactly stopped him getting the patent on the idea? Because
    that?s what patents are -- a Government-granted monopoly on an idea.

    Thomas Edison put together the first working electric light-bulb.
    Did he get the patent on it? No, because that was already taken by
    Joseph Swan.

    Who'd done quite a much development work as Thomas Edison.

    The patent went to the person who thought of the idea, not the one who
    made it work.

    Both inventors patented much the same invention at much the same
    time, and found it expedient to set up a joint company to exploit
    them.

    Only after Edison fought unsuccessfully to overturn Swan?s patent, I
    believe.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)