On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:/Can/ does not imply that a run of the mill three letter agency
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in messageSteganalysis can detect the presence of certain types of hidden/ >>>>>>> encoded data.
news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in messageOr, ensure nothing being said needs to be shielded from prying >>>>>>>>> eyes!
news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
nslookup -type=MX ieee.orgMany organizations have outsourced their email to google. >>>>>>>>>>> There is obviously value in:
Non-authoritative answer:
ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 40, mail exchanger =
alt3.aspmx.l.google.com
ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 50, mail exchanger =
alt4.aspmx.l.google.com
ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 10, mail exchanger =
aspmx.l.google.com
ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 20, mail exchanger =
alt1.aspmx.l.google.com
ieee.org˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ MX preference = 30, mail exchanger =
alt2.aspmx.l.google.com
- mapping the relationships between communicating parties >>>>>>>>>>> - reading their correspondence
Those of us who don't always want our correspondence read
will find other ways to communicate.
[A friend used to claim he "had nothing to hide".˙ I noted that >>>>>>>>> he didn't leave his financial statements "lying around"...]
Email is a postcard -- every hand that it passes through has a >>>>>>>>> chance to read its contents (doubly so if those hands are
electronic in nature!).
So let them read about your vacation, unaware of the
steganographically encoded message in the picture.
stegana-
lyst will.˙ Now, I admit I do not have any of their tool-kits, so I >>>>>> wouldn't off hand know what they do and don't detect if they start >>>>>> look-
ing.˙ I am however fairly certain I can devise a method to hide
infor-
mation undetectable by the amateur antisteganographer [1].
Having access to tools and a near-endless stream of data (in digital >>>>> form best suited to such analysis), I wouldn't doubt *someone* has
already
considered (and acted upon?) the idea.˙ "Amateurs" likely have neither >>>>> the tools nor the access.
Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the challenge -- >>>> is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world.˙ But >>>> given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I
forgot
which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
feature.
Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three
letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, and >>>> it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.
Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before.
It's kind of 50/50 that way.
[When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to
customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]
I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do
so, but
you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
something.
There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if the >>>>> bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.
Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few people in >>>> the world would be able to tell you're using English -- or another mod- >>>> ern language -- rather than whatever language it was originally used
for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A
None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.
There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.
Dear Bill,
/Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
get to make up your sound values.
Not a trivial task.
Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work
on improving your reading comprehension.
Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a language - it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write down elements
of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is used to write
down several.
My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a junior high school would have much to teach me.
American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably wouldn't
have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did back when I
was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.
Best wishes, and happy reading!
Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish. I've
been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and reading
the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a exemplary
democracy - would not be a pleasant experience. Occasionally amusing,
but I'd have to hide my amusement.
On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the challenge -- >>>>> is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world. >>>>> But
given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I
forgot
which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
feature.
Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three >>>>> letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, and >>>>> it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.
Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before.
It's kind of 50/50 that way.
[When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to
customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]
I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do >>>>>>> so, but
you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
something.
There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if the >>>>>> bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.
Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few
people in the world would be able to tell you're using English --
or another modern language -- rather than whatever language it was
originally used for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A
None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.
There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.
Dear Bill,
/Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
get to make up your sound values.
Not a trivial task.
Are you referring to the decipherment of Linear A?˙ For some light read-
ing, you can pick /The Code Book/ by Simon Singh from your shelf.
Alternatively, a bigger book on the same subject is /The Code Breakers/
by David Kahn.˙ Those two book should serve as an introductory material
on the subject, and the former is amusing -- I haven't read the latter
yet it is still on my shelf; it's a matter of tsundoku.˙ I hope you
don't need to look that word up, being erudite and all.
Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work
on improving your reading comprehension.
Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a language
- it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write down
elements of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is used
to write down several.
You now need to explain and expostulate [1] to yourself why you used the
the word /none/.˙ You see, I was talking about using Linear A to write English, and there are indeed people -- or at least people who claim
they are -- able to discover it's not the original language but a modern
one.˙ The books I referred to in the previous paragraph explain how, in practice, such is done with statistical analysis.˙ Even though they're
not a good introduction to the practicalities of modern cryptanalysis.
For that, you might want to read /Differential Cryptanalysis on Hash Functions: Theory and Practice/ by Tao Xie, and Fanbao Liu; or other
books on the subject of modern code breaking.˙ I admit I haven't read
this one either.˙ It's on my tsundoku shelf still.
My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a
junior high school would have much to teach me.
Well, presumably she could have told you that it's not polite to assume nobody can do something, just because you can't.
American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably wouldn't
have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did back when
I was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.
I take it you were reading /The Decipherment of Linear B/ by John Chad-
wick.˙ Have you thought about buying yourself the corpus of Linear A,
and attack the problem heads on?
Best wishes, and happy reading!
Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish. I've
been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and reading
the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a exemplary
democracy - would not be a pleasant experience. Occasionally amusing,
but I'd have to hide my amusement.
Oh, don't worry about the American juniour [sic] high school, you can
now study /popular culture/ in universities.˙ I bring you a link to your
very own University of Texas,
https://texasconnect.utexas.edu/2025/09/29/swifties-trekkies-and-other-devotees-unite-in-ut-class-rhetoric-of-fandom/
and I wouldn't know how to react, if I were forced to take such a
course in this day and age, when I hardly like any of the current crop
of popular amusements, and mostly read [or listen to] space captain
dramas.˙ At least that branch of literature still has men in the lead role, and
role, and manly adventures -- in space.
Now, if that isn't enough hobbies to get you started, you can always
create an account at cryptohack.org, and start doing -- in Python --
instead of reading.˙ I myself only started today, so don't read anything
from my current low score.
˙ https://cryptohack.org/user/myrkraverk/
And for that, I've added comp.lang.python to this discussion.˙ People
there are welcome to share their Cryptohack profiles, and we can have
a friendly competition in cryptographic practicalities!
Best wishes, and happy deciphering!
[1] Yes, I believe this word fits nicely, even though I'm not entirely"Expostulate" is part of my passive vocabulary. I can't recall ever
sure if Merriam Webster is current on the meaning of it
On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
<snip>
Oh, my original idea -- the one I was thinking of for the
challenge --
is almost certainly /well known/ in the three letter agency world. >>>>>> But
given the brief overview of a tool used by a /security expert/, I >>>>>> forgot
which or maybe it wasn't named, it didn't seem to be a standard
feature.
Then, if I make a custom implementation, there's no guarantee a three >>>>>> letter agency tool will catch it.˙ Just add a little bit of twist, >>>>>> and
it may well bypass the filters the three letter agencies use.
Or trigger an alert if a /well known adversary/ has used it before. >>>>>> It's kind of 50/50 that way.
[When I worked for KCP, a "three letter agency" approached us to >>>>>>> customize a version of our product.˙ It was easy to see how it could >>>>>>> be used -- and abused -- so we declined their "offer".]
I also feel no need to explain to the public at large how I'd do >>>>>>>> so, but
you are free to raise a challenge if you think it amounts to
something.
There are *countless* ways of "hiding information", especially if >>>>>>> the
bandwidth (or, total amount of data) is unspecified.
Yes, you could for example use /Linear A/, and relatively few
people in the world would be able to tell you're using English -- >>>>>> or another modern language -- rather than whatever language it was >>>>>> originally used for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A
None. Linear A doesn't seem to have been deciphered yet, and there
aren't enough sample of it around to suggest that it ever will be.
There weren't all that many more example of Linear B, but enough.
Dear Bill,
/Linear A/ is a script, not a language.˙ I never implied it had been
deciphered, but you can absolutely use it to write English.˙ You even
get to make up your sound values.
Not a trivial task.
Are you referring to the decipherment of Linear A?˙ For some light read-
ing, you can pick /The Code Book/ by Simon Singh from your shelf.
Why would I bother?
Alternatively, a bigger book on the same subject is /The Code Breakers/
by David Kahn.˙ Those two book should serve as an introductory material
on the subject, and the former is amusing -- I haven't read the latter
yet it is still on my shelf; it's a matter of tsundoku.˙ I hope you
don't need to look that word up, being erudite and all.
My wife had several Japaneses collaborators, and while our house
contains a lot of her books that I haven't read, I do read every book I
buy (or at least enough of it to realise that I shouldn't have bought it).
The nearest that I've got to a book in that area is "Security for
Computer Networks" ISBN 0 471 90063 by Davies and Price, and I only
bought it because I'd done a little bit of work with the authors.
Now please direct yourself to the nearest juniour high school, and work >>>> on improving your reading comprehension.
Your own needs some work. I never claimed that linear A was a
language - it's a writing system. It will have been devised to write
down elements of at least one language - the roman alphabet we use is
used to write down several.
You now need to explain and expostulate [1] to yourself why you used the
the word /none/.˙ You see, I was talking about using Linear A to write
English, and there are indeed people -- or at least people who claim
they are -- able to discover it's not the original language but a modern
one.˙ The books I referred to in the previous paragraph explain how, in
practice, such is done with statistical analysis.˙ Even though they're
not a good introduction to the practicalities of modern cryptanalysis.
I used the word "none" because anybody using the symbols of Linear A to write modern English would have had to have made some arbitrary choices about what the symbols represent in modern English.
For that, you might want to read /Differential Cryptanalysis on Hash
Functions: Theory and Practice/ by Tao Xie, and Fanbao Liu; or other
books on the subject of modern code breaking.˙ I admit I haven't read
this one either.˙ It's on my tsundoku shelf still.
I certainly don't want to read either book. I'm interested in
communicating with people, not with communicating with some people and freezing others out.
My late wife was a world class psycholinguist and I don't think a
junior high school would have much to teach me.
Well, presumably she could have told you that it's not polite to assume
nobody can do something, just because you can't.
My wife was frequently impolite in just that way. The nobodies in
question were young kids and most of them acquire particular linguisitc skills as they get older that they don't have when young.
American secondary education isn't wonderful, and it probably
wouldn't have taught me any more than Tasmanian secondary schools did
back when I was reading about the˙ decipherment of Minoan linear B.
I take it you were reading /The Decipherment of Linear B/ by John Chad-
wick.˙ Have you thought about buying yourself the corpus of Linear A,
and attack the problem heads on?
Wrong, as usual. The decipherment of Linear B was in the news back then
- not as front page news, but in specialist magazines (some of which
made it even to Tasmania).
Best wishes, and happy reading!
Wishing me into an American junior high school isn't a good wish.
I've been reading happily for many years now, but selectively, and
reading the nonsense they they serve up - about America being a
exemplary democracy - would not be a pleasant experience.
Occasionally amusing, but I'd have to hide my amusement.
Oh, don't worry about the American juniour [sic] high school, you can
now study /popular culture/ in universities.˙ I bring you a link to your
very own University of Texas,
https://texasconnect.utexas.edu/2025/09/29/swifties-trekkies-and-other-devotees-unite-in-ut-class-rhetoric-of-fandom/
It's not mine. My wife got her Ph.D. in Psycholinguistics from the University of Texas at Austin, and went on to do as post-doc at MIT
where she took part in seminars with Noam Chomsky and other
psycholinguistic heavyweights. Her supervisor at Austin was good value
but the rest of the faculty was mixed.
and I wouldn't know how to react, if I were forced to take such a
course in this day and age, when I hardly like any of the current crop
of popular amusements, and mostly read [or listen to] space captain
dramas.˙ At least that branch of literature still has men in the lead
role, and
role, and manly adventures -- in space.
I started reading science fiction in the late 1950's and later found
that trying to put science fiction on TV or film dumbed it down to an unacceptable extent. American science fiction does tend to be
unfortunately right wing. Ken MacLeod is Scottish and knows the
difference between a Leninist, a Trotskyist and Stalinist which make his work less fatuous.
Now, if that isn't enough hobbies to get you started, you can always
create an account at cryptohack.org, and start doing -- in Python --
instead of reading.˙ I myself only started today, so don't read anything
from my current low score.
˙˙ https://cryptohack.org/user/myrkraverk/
Why would anybody bother?
And for that, I've added comp.lang.python to this discussion.˙ People
there are welcome to share their Cryptohack profiles, and we can have
a friendly competition in cryptographic practicalities!
Best wishes, and happy deciphering!
Why would anybody bother?
Bill Sloman wrote:
On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message
news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
Why would anybody bother?
That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.
On 17/09/2026 6:43 pm, Lane W wrote:
Bill Sloman wrote:
On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>> news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
<snip>
Why would anybody bother?
That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your
hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.
It's not all that hostile - I don't call other people assholes, for a
start. I'd be perfectly happy to register a certain low level hostility towards you, as posting unhelpful negative comments is a depressing
waste of bandwidth, if not irritating enough to provoke vulgar abuse.
Bill Sloman wrote:
On 17/09/2026 6:43 pm, Lane W wrote:You remind me of myself when I was a young dog. Taking offense at
Bill Sloman wrote:
On 17/09/2026 1:39 am, Johann "Myrkraverk" Oskarsson wrote:
On 9/16/2026 9:57 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 11:08 pm, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 16/09/2026 7:37 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On 16/09/2026 12:34 am, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 14/09/2026 4:18 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/14/2026 12:42 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 14/09/2026 11:48 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/13/2026 2:41 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1186v8b$tqg8$1@dont-email.me...
On 9/13/2026 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:1185hd5$dajo$2@dont-email.me...
On 9/12/2026 11:20 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
<snip>
Why would anybody bother?
That's great. An old curmudgeon and an asshole to the last. Your
hostile attitude is very quaint and charming.
It's not all that hostile - I don't call other people assholes, for a
start. I'd be perfectly happy to register a certain low level
hostility towards you, as posting unhelpful negative comments is a
depressing waste of bandwidth, if not irritating enough to provoke
vulgar abuse.
anything new that should approach. Don't go looking for snakes, you
might find them.
Have you ever considered how provincial you are way out here in the sticks?
It didn't stop him getting an international patent on
counter-current continuous cooking, where you convert wood chips
into paper pulp by letting them fall down through a rising stream of
sodium hydroxide. solution. We did get international visitors. One
was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Richter_(inventor)
who'd invented the concurrent continuous digestor that my father
eventually modified for counter-current operation. Johan had tried
for some ten years to get it to work counter-current, and his
company (Kamyr) never paid any royalty on my father's patent, though
the industry adopted the process very rapidly.
On Fri, 18 Sep 2026 15:36:33 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:
It didn't stop him getting an international patent on
counter-current continuous cooking, where you convert wood chips
into paper pulp by letting them fall down through a rising stream of
sodium hydroxide. solution. We did get international visitors. One
was
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Richter_(inventor)
who'd invented the concurrent continuous digestor that my father
eventually modified for counter-current operation. Johan had tried
for some ten years to get it to work counter-current, and his
company (Kamyr) never paid any royalty on my father's patent, though
the industry adopted the process very rapidly.
But you don?t need to prove something works before getting a patent.
Thomas Edison put together the first working electric light-bulb. Did
he get the patent on it? No, because that was already taken by Joseph
Swan.
On 19/09/2026 8:04 am, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:
But you don?t need to prove something works before getting a
patent.
It's frequently helpful to have a working example. The counter-current continuous digestor was quite a tricky design - which is why Johan
Richter could never get any of his versions to work - and potential
users would set set up industrial scale trials.
Thomas Edison put together the first working electric light-bulb.
Did he get the patent on it? No, because that was already taken by
Joseph Swan.
Who'd done quite a much development work as Thomas Edison.
Both inventors patented much the same invention at much the same
time, and found it expedient to set up a joint company to exploit
them.
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