Subject: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and
IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the Microsofties viewing
their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless bureaucracy and the IBM folks viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices in
Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be used to
move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks at IBM were
not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB key, so they asked
him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job offer
with Microsoft in 1987.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On 5/6/2026 1:43 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and
IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
ÿÿ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the Microsofties viewing their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless bureaucracy and the IBM folks viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices in
Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be used to move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks at IBM were
not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB key, so they asked
him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job offer
with Microsoft in 1987.

Fwiw, I always try to setup my editors to treat the TAB key as four
spaces....

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

[snip]

Fwiw, I always try to setup my editors to treat the TAB key as four spaces....

I like mine to emulate a real typewriter - so the tab key moves to the
next tab position - usually a multiple of 8 spaces.

--
Graham J

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On Thu, 7 May 2026 13:29:17 -0700
"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/6/2026 1:43 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Micro

soft

and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
ÿÿ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p

=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch b

etween

Microsoft and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the
Microsofties viewing their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless
bureaucracy and the IBM folks viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structur

e.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offi

ces

in Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be
used to move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks
at IBM were not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the T

AB

key, so they asked him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job
offer with Microsoft in 1987.

Fwiw, I always try to setup my editors to treat the TAB key as four spaces....

I see no relationship between original post of Lynn and your reply.
Since it is hard to believe that you reading comprehension is so poor,
the most likely explanation would be that you didn't read original post
at all and most likely did not even read a subject line to its end.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On 5/8/2026 4:14 AM, Michael S wrote:

On Thu, 7 May 2026 13:29:17 -0700
"Chris M. Thomasson" <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/6/2026 1:43 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
ÿÿ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between
Microsoft and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the
Microsofties viewing their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless
bureaucracy and the IBM folks viewing Microsofties as undisciplined
hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices
in Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be
used to move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks
at IBM were not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB
key, so they asked him to escalate the issue to his manager back in
Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job
offer with Microsoft in 1987.

Fwiw, I always try to setup my editors to treat the TAB key as four
spaces....

I see no relationship between original post of Lynn and your reply.
Since it is hard to believe that you reading comprehension is so poor,
the most likely explanation would be that you didn't read original post
at all and most likely did not even read a subject line to its end.

Eat the TAB? ;^)

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> on Wed, 6 May 2026 15:43:58
-0500 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and
IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the Microsofties viewing >their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless bureaucracy and the IBM folks >viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices in
Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be used to >move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks at IBM were
not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB key, so they asked
him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key. I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job offer
with Microsoft in 1987.

Lynn

--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures by Raymond Chen

On 5/8/2026 6:18 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> on Wed, 6 May 2026 15:43:58
-0500 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and
IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the Microsofties viewing
their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless bureaucracy and the IBM folks
viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices in
Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be used to
move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks at IBM were
not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB key, so they asked
him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key. I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

...
Me too. I am in the midst of converting 800,000 lines of F77 code to
C++. I hit the dadgum Capslock key all the time instead of the Tab key
whilst reformatting my new C++ code. And I have been using this 1991 Northgate Omnikey/102 keyboard since 1992.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures by Raymond Chen

Why is that post cross-posted to so many groups?

On 2026-05-09 01:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:

On 5/8/2026 6:18 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> on Wed, 6 May 2026 15:43:58
-0500 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11ÿ the following:

[...]

ÿÿÿÿI just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key.ÿ I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

I suggest to remap the keyboard layout. (I'm doing that once with
every new system I get and have my peace.)

...
Me too.ÿ I am in the midst of converting 800,000 lines of F77 code to C+
+.ÿ I hit the dadgum Capslock key all the time instead of the Tab key
whilst reformatting my new C++ code.ÿ And I have been using this 1991 Northgate Omnikey/102 keyboard since 1992.

You're doing that manually? (Then the Tab key should be your least
concern.) There's editors with powerful formatting functions, and
there's configurable code beautifiers.

Janis


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures by Raymond Chen

On 5/8/2026 6:50 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

Why is that post cross-posted to so many groups?

On 2026-05-09 01:32, Lynn McGuire wrote:

On 5/8/2026 6:18 PM, pyotr filipivich wrote:

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> on Wed, 6 May 2026 15:43:58
-0500 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11ÿ the following:

[...]

ÿÿÿÿI just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key.ÿ I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

I suggest to remap the keyboard layout. (I'm doing that once with
every new system I get and have my peace.)

...
Me too.ÿ I am in the midst of converting 800,000 lines of F77 code to
C+ +.ÿ I hit the dadgum Capslock key all the time instead of the Tab
key whilst reformatting my new C++ code.ÿ And I have been using this
1991 Northgate Omnikey/102 keyboard since 1992.

You're doing that manually? (Then the Tab key should be your least
concern.) There's editors with powerful formatting functions, and
there's configurable code beautifiers.

Janis

Nope, I have customized version of F2C that I wrote that does 80% of the
work for me. Getting that last 20% was just too hard though.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: "A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures" by Raymond Chen

pyotr filipivich wrote this screed in ALL-CAPS:

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> on Wed, 6 May 2026 15:43:58
-0500 typed in alt.comp.os.windows-11 the following:

"A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and >>IBM organizational structures" by Raymond Chen

<snippage>

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key. I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

I convert CapsLk to a control key:

setxkbmap -option ctrl:nocaps

And to not have to reach for the Esc key, I use a little program
called "xcape".

<https://flenniken.net/blog/xcape/>

The github site(s) are 404, but one can install xcape in Debian
and Arch at least. It has a man page.

I have it set up so that a brief (< 500ms) press on CapsLk acts
like Esc. With a long press it acts like a Ctrl key.

More info here:

<https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/r23z4b/til_people_on_macos_you_can_map_caps_lock_to/>

--
Q: How do you save a drowning lawyer?
A: Throw him a rock.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures by Raymond Chen

On 2026-05-09 01:18, pyotr filipivich wrote:

I just wish "they" had left the Tab key above the shift key. I'm
still hitting CAPS LOCK when I meant to tab over after all these
years.

Doesn't happen to me.

Instead, when typing blind, sometimes the little finger instead of
hitting the "a" hits the caps lock, and instead of the 's' I hit the
'A', etc.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> writes:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

[SNIP]

This post has triggered a lengthy discussion across four newsgroups.

It has nothing to do with the C or C++ programming languages.

The article is interesting, but Lynn, please don't post to clc or
clc++ unless there's some relevance to C or C++.

Everyone else: Please consider trimming the newsgroups if you post
a followup.

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.14
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.lang.c.]
On 2026-05-07, Chris M. Thomasson <chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/6/2026 1:43 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:

?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and
IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen
ÿÿ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20260505-00/?p=112298

?I?ve written in the past about the cultural mismatch between Microsoft
and IBM during the collaboration on OS/2, with the Microsofties viewing
their IBM colleagues as mired in pointless bureaucracy and the IBM folks
viewing Microsofties as undisciplined hackers.??

?One of many points of mismatch was the organizational structure.?

?A colleague recalls that while he was assigned to the IBM offices in
Boca Raton, Florida, there was a dispute over what key should be used to
move from one field to another in dialog boxes. The folks at IBM were
not happy with my colleague?s decision to use the TAB key, so they asked
him to escalate the issue to his manager back in Redmond.?

Ok, that resolution is funny.

I often wonder how life would have been if I had taken that job offer
with Microsoft in 1987.

Fwiw, I always try to setup my editors to treat the TAB key as four spaces....

I think TABs are cool because of this: you can set the indentation level
to what you are used to.

also saves space if you really need to squash four bytes.

--
- mario


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On 6/2/2026 4:35 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

Richard Harnden <richard.nospam@gmail.invalid> writes:

On 02/06/2026 21:27, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

Fwiw, I _always_ make my editors treat TAB as a block of spaces.

What about Makefiles?

If he actually uses make.

(I suspect he's a windows programmer primarily).

I have /* vim: xxx */ at the tail of each source file
with the appropriate tabination for the source language
or coding style guideline.

I have not written any code on my FreeBSD box in about a week now. It
is my webserver with about 25,000 lines of C++ code on it for automating
web duties.

I do not use makefiles on my FreeBSD box, I have brute force script that recompiles everything and links it all.

For my Windows user interface with 480,000 lines of C++ code, I use
Visual C++ 2015 to build.

For my calculation engine with 800,000 lines of F77 code and 50,000
lines of C++ code, I have a brute force script that calls other scripts
to compile and link my four EXEs and three DLLs.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On Tue, 2 Jun 2026 21:59:05 +0100, Richard Harnden wrote:

On 02/06/2026 21:27, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

Fwiw, I _always_ make my editors treat TAB as a block of spaces.

What about Makefiles?

I do what Chris does by default, but Emacs being Emacs, I can always
hit CTRL/Q-TAB to insert a literal tab wherever necessary.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On Tue, 2 Jun 2026 23:28:52 +0100, Bart wrote:

Why wouldn't you use makefiles on Windows?

Because Microsoft took the idea and screwed it up so badly.

<https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20190325-00/?p=102359>

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Subject: Re: ?A dispute over the TAB key highlights a mismatch between Microsoft and IBM organizational structures? by Raymond Chen

On 6/4/2026 3:54 PM, Niocl s P¢l Caile n de Ghloucester wrote:

Lynn McGuire <LynnMcGuire5@GMail.com> wrote: | |--------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"For my Windows user interface with 480,000 lines of C++ code, I use| |Visual C++ 2015 to build." | |--------------------------------------------------------------------|

Hello:

Why do you use such an old version?

Do you detect any differences in different versions of link.exe from different versions of Microsoft Software Developers Kit or Visual C++?

I need to support e.g. Windows 10 but Microsoft does not still support Windows 10, so a person said to me that it might be best for me to not
use the latest Microsoft Software Developers Kit.

Thanks in advance.
(S. HTTP://Gloucester.Insomnia247.NL/ fuer Kontaktdaten!)

I have many customers running several different version of Windows.
Even a couple running Windows XP on SCADA machines. Newer versions of
Visual C++ require Windows 10, the latest requires Windows 11.

The major differences in the Visual C++ distributables are the RTL, run
time libraries.

Lynn


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.15
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)