• Re: What is a genius programmer (e.g. C, Pascal, Foxpro)?

    From Janis Papanagnou@3:633/10 to All on Fri Jul 31 19:55:16 2026
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]

    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who
    has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    machine for actual power in the real world."

    Janis


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 1 02:09:30 2026
    On 01/08/2026 1:55 AM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]

    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    ˙popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    ˙a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who
    ˙has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    ˙and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    ˙are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    ˙a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    ˙machine for actual power in the real world."

    Janis


    Thank you for that book recommendation. I'll see in the future if I
    come across a copy. That definition is flawed. It kind of presumes
    that only pathological figures can be good at programming. I'd like
    to present myself as a counter example.

    The regulars in comp.lang.c who disagree, are simply all mistaking
    "technical dominance" for skill, which they then use to look down
    on other people whey feel is "inferiour." I know they disrespect me.

    I disrespect them more, back.


    And that's entirely on their own lack of skill points in human to human interaction.

    --
    Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
    I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From R Kym Horsell@3:633/10 to All on Fri Jul 31 18:11:34 2026
    In comp.lang.c Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]
    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who
    has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    machine for actual power in the real world."
    Janis

    LOL. Computer scientist making psychiatric assesments?

    --
    Dunning-Kruger Effect: Ignorance and Overconfidence Affect Intuitive Thinking, New Study Says
    The Debrief, 13 Apr 2021
    In a newly published study, researchers say the Dunning-Kruger Effect
    can cause low-performers to overestimate their judgments during the
    intuitive decision-making process.
    According to the study published in the journal Frontiers in
    Psychology on April 8, 2021, researchers found that persons with the
    highest number of errors demonstrated the highest degree of
    miscalibration, or overconfidence, in their actual performance on the
    cognitive reflection test.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Janis Papanagnou@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 1 10:08:45 2026
    On 2026-07-31 20:11, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]
    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who
    has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    machine for actual power in the real world."

    LOL. Computer scientist making psychiatric assesments?

    Actually no; he was viewing and analyzing the situation more on the
    level of society (or how computers changed the common mindset about
    computers in unjustifiable ways) not a personal one about specific
    programmers. - A difference is certainly the pervasion of computers
    in the 1970's world and today, concerning both, the societies and
    the "programmers" (or more generally, the computer experts). While
    we have (still) the social stereotype of "hackers" and programmers
    that's just a small aspect of the picture.

    It was more a plea for keeping the human values (as opposed to the "technocratic").

    AI - a common topic nowadays again - BTW, plays also an important
    role in that book and most he wrote back then, five decades ago, is
    still valid - despite the "progress" in that area.

    Janis


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 1 16:26:22 2026
    On 01/08/2026 4:08 PM, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 20:11, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]
    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    ˙ popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    ˙ a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who >>> ˙ has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    ˙ and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    ˙ are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    ˙ a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    ˙ machine for actual power in the real world."

    LOL. Computer scientist making psychiatric assesments?

    Actually no; he was viewing and analyzing the situation more on the
    level of society (or how computers changed the common mindset about
    computers in unjustifiable ways) not a personal one about specific programmers. - A difference is certainly the pervasion of computers
    in the 1970's world and today, concerning both, the societies and
    the "programmers" (or more generally, the computer experts). While
    we have (still) the social stereotype of "hackers" and programmers
    that's just a small aspect of the picture.

    It was more a plea for keeping the human values (as opposed to the "technocratic").

    AI - a common topic nowadays again - BTW, plays also an important
    role in that book and most he wrote back then, five decades ago, is
    still valid - despite the "progress" in that area.

    Janis


    In my opinion, the current crop of "AI" -- the quotes are there for a
    reason -- show how flawed the Turing test is. It completely fails to
    account for people anthropomorphizing the machines. And I think it
    shows that Alan Turing didn't understand human nature well enough, when
    he thought of this test.

    I think we need a completely new definition of AI, if we are ever going
    to reach the heights of Star Trek. And even then, I think those "AI"
    machines weren't sentient enough.

    How do we even define sentience?

    --
    Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
    I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris M. Thomasson@3:633/10 to All on Sat Aug 1 01:41:15 2026
    On 8/1/2026 1:26 AM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
    [...]
    In my opinion, the current crop of "AI" -- the quotes are there for a
    reason -- show how flawed the Turing test is.˙ It completely fails to
    account for people anthropomorphizing the machines.˙ And I think it
    shows that Alan Turing didn't understand human nature well enough, when
    he thought of this test.

    I think we need a completely new definition of AI, if we are ever going
    to reach the heights of Star Trek.˙ And even then, I think those "AI" machines weren't sentient enough.

    How do we even define sentience?


    You kind of remind me of PO over from sci.math?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From R Kym Horsell@3:633/10 to All on Sun Aug 2 01:31:33 2026
    In comp.lang.c Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 20:11, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 2026-07-31 19:09, R Kym Horsell wrote:
    In comp.lang.c Mr. Man-wai Chang <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote:
    What is a genius programmer?

    [...]
    "According to MIT computer scientist Joseph Weizenbaum, the archetype
    popularly celebrated as a "genius programmer" or "hacker" is actually
    a "compulsive programmer" - a deeply troubled, pathological figure who >>> has lost touch with reality. In his seminal 1976 book, Computer Power
    and Human Reason, Weizenbaum rejects the idea that these individuals
    are true creative geniuses. Instead, he describes them as victims of
    a psychological compulsion who mistake technical dominance over a
    machine for actual power in the real world."

    LOL. Computer scientist making psychiatric assesments?

    Actually no; he was viewing and analyzing the situation more on the
    level of society (or how computers changed the common mindset about
    ...

    LOL.

    It's common that people make a hash of things when they step
    out of their area of expertise.
    You have to be careful and go by the actual published literature
    rather than substitute your own opinion or "experience" which
    generally boils down to making statements that sound an awful lot
    like projection rather than fact.

    In the case of "what is a hacker" there should have been some
    kind of assessment of personality types in general.
    Since Jung there have at least been introverts and extroverts.
    These types are sometimes attracted to the same kinds of professions
    or activities but their motivations and internal workings are
    typically "the opposite".

    E.g. scientists can be either introverts or extroverts.
    Introverts by definition are concerned about the inner workings of
    their own minds and by extention are concerned more with what things
    are rather than how they appear.
    Extroverts are somewhat the opposite.

    The classical literature argues that extroverted scientists tend to
    gather all the knowlege they can and then become gatekeepers and
    prevent newcomers trying to change things. Many well-known names
    have tried to destroy their younger colleages because they had a
    "new fangled idea". They can also be know for flying into an
    incoherent tantrum when their position of authority is challeged by
    peers. :)

    Introverted scientists OTOH degenerate another way. Their own thoughts
    become more important than prizes or applause and they can wander off
    into obscure areas they are interested in but only share that
    interest with a handful of other people in the world.

    Hackers -- we presume they are people -- undoubtedly fall into
    similar patterns rather than the one-size-fits-all musing from
    the good Dr J.

    --
    Projection, the mental process by which people attribute to others what is
    in their own minds. The concept was introduced to psychology by
    Sigmund Freud.
    -- britannica

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)