• Re: Why VAX Was the Ultimate CISC and Not RISC

    From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 26 22:13:56 2026
    On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 18:06:04 GMT, Anton Ertl wrote:

    If DEC did everything right, why is there no DEC now?

    It was a company run by engineers, not businesspeople. They were
    bright engineers, who pioneered a lot of things in their early days,
    but they were less appreciative of innovations coming into their
    market from other directions (Unix, and of course the IBM PC and
    friends).

    The fact that Intel and AMD could ramp up the speed faster than
    Alpha probably was the nail in the coffin.

    Or indeed, faster than PowerPC, which Apple were using at around that
    time.

    I used to tell people that Intel was spending 10? on developing x86
    what IBM/Motorola were putting into developing PowerPC. But then, they
    were also earning 10? as much revenue from x86 chips, so they could
    afford it. The result was, the inferior technology was winning in the marketplace, just due to the sheer laws of economics.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 26 22:16:43 2026
    On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 14:32:48 -0700, Chris M. Thomasson wrote:

    It was interesting to me that Windows can run on an Alpha:

    https://betawiki.net/wiki/Draft:Installing_Windows_NT_on_DEC_Alpha

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS. It even had
    a ?personality? system, where the Win32 API was just one ?personality?
    that could be exposed to userland; there were plans to support others.

    In the end, the portability of a proprietary OS proved too expensive
    to maintain. A few non-x86 ports did ship for a while, but none lasted
    for long.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Ames@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 10:04:50 2026
    On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 22:16:43 -0000 (UTC)
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed a
    t the
    beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS. It even had
    a ?personality? system, where the Win32 API was just one
    ?personality?
    that could be exposed to userland; there were plans to support others.

    In the end, the portability of a proprietary OS proved too expensive
    to maintain. A few non-x86 ports did ship for a while, but none lasted
    for long.

    Yeah, multiarchitecture NT was a neat idea, but they whiffed on some essentials, the time wasn't really right, and they never gave it quite
    the effort it needed, or the marketing push. The core work of getting
    it up and running on the various RISC platforms was handled well; 2k
    RC1 runs as stably on Alpha as it does on a comparable P2 rig...

    ...but AFAIK Alpha was the only architecture they developed an x86
    translation layer for ('til ARM64, decades later.) So on e.g. PPC or
    MIPS you were limited to the set of applications whose developers felt
    like providing a native build, which wasn't helped by the fact that M$
    sold separate RISC editions of Visual Studio. (I still have the copy of
    VB5 from the brief period where $EMPLOYER toyed with Alpha support.)

    Moreover, they didn't provide anything like the "fat binary" formats
    used by e.g. Apple or NeXT, so even shipping native builds for multiple architectures was a non-trivial thing; nor was there a shared virtual-
    machine platform developers could target UCSD-style, even though MS had experience with that since the first versions of Visual Basic.

    (Granted, performance on VM platforms was even more lackluster in those
    days, before the advent of JIT techniques etc., but a slower version of
    an application is, in most cases, better than none at all.)

    It's also a good question how much demand there was for cross-platform
    RISC support at the time - how many Windows users *really* needed to be
    on the bleeding edge of performance that bad? - but MS's attitude that
    their job was done when the OS was up and running sure didn't help.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Roman Belenov@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 20:22:16 2026
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Regards, Roman

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 18:05:10 2026
    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov <no@spam.please> wrote: >Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at the
    beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dave Yeo@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 11:14:43 2026
    Roman Belenov wrote:
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at the
    beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?


    I remember a Byte article about OS/2 NT v3 first boot (cmd line) on MIPS.
    Quite possible they developed on multiple architectures.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 20:15:39 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:05:10 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov <no@spam.please>
    wrote:
    Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didnƒ??t you know?
    NT was designed
    at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of
    architectures -- development actually started, not on x86, but on
    MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    Wikipedia claims that the first architecture to boot NT was i860
    emulator. They don't say what was the hardware host of the emulator.
    The first boot on bare metal most likely happened on MIPS R3000.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 18:50:58 2026
    In article <20261027201539.00001cb0@yahoo.com>,
    Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:05:10 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov <no@spam.please>
    wrote:
    Lawrence Dƒ??Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didnƒ??t you know? NT was designed
    at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of
    architectures -- development actually started, not on x86, but on
    MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    Wikipedia claims that the first architecture to boot NT was i860
    emulator. They don't say what was the hardware host of the emulator.
    The first boot on bare metal most likely happened on MIPS R3000.

    Believe what you want, but I have this first-hand from an
    engineer who was there.

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 21:16:41 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:50:58 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <20261027201539.00001cb0@yahoo.com>,
    Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:05:10 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov
    <no@spam.please> wrote:
    Lawrence D?›ƒ?ªƒ?›Olive
    iro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?›ƒ??
    ?ƒ?›t you know? NT was
    designed at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a
    range of architectures -- development actually started, not on
    x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    Wikipedia claims that the first architecture to boot NT was i860
    emulator. They don't say what was the hardware host of the emulator.
    The first boot on bare metal most likely happened on MIPS R3000.

    Believe what you want, but I have this first-hand from an
    engineer who was there.

    - Dan C.



    Looked further and found this: https://x.com/davepl1968/status/2103977673425047588

    Sounds like Wikipedia story is not complete.
    The complete story was:
    1. First boot - i860 emulator running on i386 under OS/2
    2. First boot on bare metal - i860 XR. Unsatisfactory performance.
    3. Boot on MIPS 3 months thereafter.










    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Peter Flass@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 12:44:47 2026
    On 10/27/26 10:04, John Ames wrote:
    On Mon, 26 Oct 2026 22:16:43 -0000 (UTC)
    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at the
    beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of architectures
    -- development actually started, not on x86, but on MIPS. It even had
    a ?personality? system, where the Win32 API was just one ?personality?
    that could be exposed to userland; there were plans to support others.

    In the end, the portability of a proprietary OS proved too expensive
    to maintain. A few non-x86 ports did ship for a while, but none lasted
    for long.

    Yeah, multiarchitecture NT was a neat idea, but they whiffed on some essentials, the time wasn't really right, and they never gave it quite
    the effort it needed, or the marketing push. The core work of getting
    it up and running on the various RISC platforms was handled well; 2k
    RC1 runs as stably on Alpha as it does on a comparable P2 rig...

    ...but AFAIK Alpha was the only architecture they developed an x86 translation layer for ('til ARM64, decades later.) So on e.g. PPC or
    MIPS you were limited to the set of applications whose developers felt
    like providing a native build, which wasn't helped by the fact that M$
    sold separate RISC editions of Visual Studio. (I still have the copy of
    VB5 from the brief period where $EMPLOYER toyed with Alpha support.)

    Moreover, they didn't provide anything like the "fat binary" formats
    used by e.g. Apple or NeXT, so even shipping native builds for multiple architectures was a non-trivial thing; nor was there a shared virtual- machine platform developers could target UCSD-style, even though MS had experience with that since the first versions of Visual Basic.

    (Granted, performance on VM platforms was even more lackluster in those
    days, before the advent of JIT techniques etc., but a slower version of
    an application is, in most cases, better than none at all.)

    It's also a good question how much demand there was for cross-platform
    RISC support at the time - how many Windows users *really* needed to be
    on the bleeding edge of performance that bad? - but MS's attitude that
    their job was done when the OS was up and running sure didn't help.

    Wasn't there an NT release for the PowerPC?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Peter Flass@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 12:46:56 2026
    On 10/27/26 12:16, Michael S wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:50:58 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <20261027201539.00001cb0@yahoo.com>,
    Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:05:10 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov
    <no@spam.please> wrote:
    Lawrence D?›ƒ?ªƒ?›Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?›ƒ?ªƒ?›t you know? NT was
    designed at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a
    range of architectures -- development actually started, not on
    x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    Wikipedia claims that the first architecture to boot NT was i860
    emulator. They don't say what was the hardware host of the emulator.
    The first boot on bare metal most likely happened on MIPS R3000.

    Believe what you want, but I have this first-hand from an
    engineer who was there.

    - Dan C.



    Looked further and found this: https://x.com/davepl1968/status/2103977673425047588

    Sounds like Wikipedia story is not complete.
    The complete story was:
    1. First boot - i860 emulator running on i386 under OS/2
    2. First boot on bare metal - i860 XR. Unsatisfactory performance.
    3. Boot on MIPS 3 months thereafter.

    What would "satisfactory" performance for Windows have looked like?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Michael S@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 22:00:58 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 12:46:56 -0700
    Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:

    On 10/27/26 12:16, Michael S wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:50:58 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <20261027201539.00001cb0@yahoo.com>,
    Michael S <already5chosen@yahoo.com> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 18:05:10 -0000 (UTC)
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote:

    In article <m2mrrzxdmf.fsf@Mac.lan>, Roman Belenov
    <no@spam.please> wrote:
    Lawrence D?›ƒ?ªƒ?›Oli
    veiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?›ƒ??
    ?ƒ?›t you know? NT was
    designed at the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a
    range of architectures -- development actually started, not on
    x86, but on MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Yes. i860 was the first architecture to boot NT.

    - Dan C.


    Wikipedia claims that the first architecture to boot NT was i860
    emulator. They don't say what was the hardware host of the
    emulator. The first boot on bare metal most likely happened on
    MIPS R3000.

    Believe what you want, but I have this first-hand from an
    engineer who was there.

    - Dan C.



    Looked further and found this: https://x.com/davepl1968/status/2103977673425047588

    Sounds like Wikipedia story is not complete.
    The complete story was:
    1. First boot - i860 emulator running on i386 under OS/2
    2. First boot on bare metal - i860 XR. Unsatisfactory performance.
    3. Boot on MIPS 3 months thereafter.

    What would "satisfactory" performance for Windows have looked like?

    How would I possibly know? My guess is, something like "100 context
    switches per second reduce performance (relatively to 0 switches) of
    CPU-bound tasks by less than 5%." But that's just my wild guess.
    Anyway, since MIPS, x86 and few months later Alpha versions of NT
    shipped, I would guess that they all were considered satisfactory.







    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Ames@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 13:03:49 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 12:44:47 -0700
    Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> wrote:

    Wasn't there an NT release for the PowerPC?

    Yup - only 3.5/3.51, and AFAIK it only ran on IBM hardware, but it did
    exist, briefly.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 22:19:02 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 20:22:16 +0300, Roman Belenov wrote:

    Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

    All part of the original plan, didn?t you know? NT was designed at
    the beginning to be a portable OS, able to run on a range of
    architectures -- development actually started, not on x86, but on
    MIPS.

    Wasn't it i860?

    Probably.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 27 22:32:21 2026
    On Tue, 27 Oct 2026 08:18 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), John Dallman wrote:

    In article <11bogu0$10307$1@dont-email.me>, chris.m.thomasson.1@gmail.com (Chris M. Thomasson) wrote:

    It was interesting to me that Windows can run on an Alpha:

    https://betawiki.net/wiki/Draft:Installing_Windows_NT_on_DEC_Alpha

    It worked fine. My employers supported it for several years. It had
    customers because it was the fastest Windows platform, for a while.

    Never took advantage of 64-bit addressing, though; ran the Alpha in
    32-bit-only ?TASO? mode.

    Of the four OSes I can think of that were ported to Alpha, the one
    from Microsoft was 32-bit-only, DEC?s homegrown one (OpenVMS) was a
    32/64-bit hybrid, and the only fully 64-bit ones were DEC UNIX and
    Linux.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)