• Re: "The end of software secrecy is almost upon us"

    From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 02:03:47 2026
    In article <87h5iizglt.fsf@localhost>, Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >[snip]
    Part of IBM restructure was unloading vlsi tools on industry tool vendor
    ... and they required it run on SUN platforms (pervasive in the
    industry). I got a contract to port a 50,000 statement vs/pascal VLSI >application to SUN (pascal ... in retrospect it would have been easier
    to have rewitten it in "C"). SUN pascal appeared to have been limited to >educational uses *AND* support had been outsourced to an organization on
    the opposite side of the planet (easy to walk into sun hdqtrs, but
    didn't actually help a lot).

    I'm not surprised. Pascal is not a bad language, but Sun's
    Pascal compiler was a descendent of the UCB Pascal system done
    on the PDP-11 (starting with a draft by Ken Thompson, who took
    it to Berkeley during a sabbatical year in 1975 or '76) and
    later ported to the VAX and then Sun workstations. That was
    mainly intended for teaching; using it for production software
    always felt kind of like an afterthought.

    - Dan C


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Peter Flass@3:633/10 to All on Sun Oct 18 19:54:50 2026
    On 10/18/26 19:03, Dan Cross wrote:
    In article <87h5iizglt.fsf@localhost>, Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote:
    [snip]
    Part of IBM restructure was unloading vlsi tools on industry tool vendor
    ... and they required it run on SUN platforms (pervasive in the
    industry). I got a contract to port a 50,000 statement vs/pascal VLSI
    application to SUN (pascal ... in retrospect it would have been easier
    to have rewitten it in "C"). SUN pascal appeared to have been limited to
    educational uses *AND* support had been outsourced to an organization on
    the opposite side of the planet (easy to walk into sun hdqtrs, but
    didn't actually help a lot).

    I'm not surprised. Pascal is not a bad language, but Sun's
    Pascal compiler was a descendent of the UCB Pascal system done
    on the PDP-11 (starting with a draft by Ken Thompson, who took
    it to Berkeley during a sabbatical year in 1975 or '76) and
    later ported to the VAX and then Sun workstations. That was
    mainly intended for teaching; using it for production software
    always felt kind of like an afterthought.

    - Dan C

    I would tend to think of Borland Turbo Pascal. Borland wrote good compilers.

    As I said, I have glanced at Free Pascal, and know of one excellent
    package written in it. It seems like a solid and very powerful system,
    but the industry has passed it by and moved on to other things.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 06:10:02 2026
    On Sun, 18 Oct 2026 19:54:50 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

    I would tend to think of Borland Turbo Pascal. Borland wrote good
    compilers.

    Their specialty was fast compilers. Not sure how large a source
    program they could cope with. Like, could they compile themselves?
    Or how complex a build procedure they could handle.

    As I said, I have glanced at Free Pascal, and know of one excellent
    package written in it. It seems like a solid and very powerful
    system, but the industry has passed it by and moved on to other
    things.

    Pascal compilers seemed to fall into two roughly separate groups: on
    the one hand, you had the mini/mainframe-based implementations, which
    all tended to stick closely to the standard (a notable exception being
    DEC?s VAX compiler, from version 2 onwards, which had some remarkable extensions to handle system programming). While on the other hand, you
    had the implementations on microprocessor-based machines, which all
    seemed to derive from UCSD Pascal in some way.

    It turns out there is an official standard, ISO10206, dating from
    1990, which specifies a whole lot of extensions to old ?standard?
    Pascal (ISO7185), including modules, namespace qualification, type
    schemata, nice string functions, ?bindable? variables, structured
    value constructors and other fun stuff.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 14:35:40 2026
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
    In article <87h5iizglt.fsf@localhost>, Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>[snip]
    Part of IBM restructure was unloading vlsi tools on industry tool vendor >>... and they required it run on SUN platforms (pervasive in the
    industry). I got a contract to port a 50,000 statement vs/pascal VLSI >>application to SUN (pascal ... in retrospect it would have been easier
    to have rewitten it in "C"). SUN pascal appeared to have been limited to >>educational uses *AND* support had been outsourced to an organization on >>the opposite side of the planet (easy to walk into sun hdqtrs, but
    didn't actually help a lot).

    I'm not surprised. Pascal is not a bad language, but Sun's
    Pascal compiler was a descendent of the UCB Pascal system done
    on the PDP-11 (starting with a draft by Ken Thompson, who took
    it to Berkeley during a sabbatical year in 1975 or '76) and
    later ported to the VAX and then Sun workstations. That was
    mainly intended for teaching; using it for production software
    always felt kind of like an afterthought.

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production
    systems software, given the access to the starlet
    interface library.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bob Eager@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 20:45:36 2026
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 14:35:40 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production systems
    software, given the access to the starlet interface library.

    There was a complete mail system written in it, although the name escales
    me.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bob Eager@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 20:52:27 2026
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 20:45:36 +0000, Bob Eager wrote:

    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 14:35:40 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production systems
    software, given the access to the starlet interface library.

    There was a complete mail system written in it, although the name
    escales me.

    PMDF - that was it

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 21:02:47 2026
    Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> writes:
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 14:35:40 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production systems
    software, given the access to the starlet interface library.

    There was a complete mail system written in it, although the name escales >me.

    I wrote a print symbiont in VAX Pascal, as well as usage accounting
    utilities and a few other tools.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Bob Eager@3:633/10 to All on Mon Oct 19 23:10:31 2026
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 21:02:47 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> writes:
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 14:35:40 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production systems
    software, given the access to the starlet interface library.

    There was a complete mail system written in it, although the name
    escales me.

    I wrote a print symbiont in VAX Pascal, as well as usage accounting
    utilities and a few other tools.

    I wrote everything in Macro-32 or BCPL.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Dan Cross@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 20 02:07:16 2026
    In article <0VpBS.68246$ACx3.3130@fx15.iad>,
    Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
    cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
    In article <87h5iizglt.fsf@localhost>, Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> wrote: >>>[snip]
    Part of IBM restructure was unloading vlsi tools on industry tool vendor >>>... and they required it run on SUN platforms (pervasive in the >>>industry). I got a contract to port a 50,000 statement vs/pascal VLSI >>>application to SUN (pascal ... in retrospect it would have been easier
    to have rewitten it in "C"). SUN pascal appeared to have been limited to >>>educational uses *AND* support had been outsourced to an organization on >>>the opposite side of the planet (easy to walk into sun hdqtrs, but
    didn't actually help a lot).

    I'm not surprised. Pascal is not a bad language, but Sun's
    Pascal compiler was a descendent of the UCB Pascal system done
    on the PDP-11 (starting with a draft by Ken Thompson, who took
    it to Berkeley during a sabbatical year in 1975 or '76) and
    later ported to the VAX and then Sun workstations. That was
    mainly intended for teaching; using it for production software
    always felt kind of like an afterthought.

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production
    systems software, given the access to the starlet
    interface library.

    On VMS, sure. But the Berkeley Pascal system for BSD? Eh....

    - Dan C.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Scott Lurndal@3:633/10 to All on Tue Oct 20 14:16:57 2026
    Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> writes:
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 21:02:47 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> writes:
    On Mon, 19 Oct 2026 14:35:40 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    The VAX Pascal was certainly good enough for production systems
    software, given the access to the starlet interface library.

    There was a complete mail system written in it, although the name
    escales me.

    I wrote a print symbiont in VAX Pascal, as well as usage accounting
    utilities and a few other tools.

    I wrote everything in Macro-32 or BCPL.

    I used Pascal, Macro-32 and BLISS-32.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)