• Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of

    From John Ames@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 08:02:04 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
    Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

    side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
    one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
    if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
    thing the chatbots dredge up.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Unknown@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 15:49:31 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)


    John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> posted:

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
    Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

    side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
    one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
    if trying to put on a "literary affect."

    As used today by people trying to give an impression of literary culture, it usually just means "sort": "Donald Trump and politicians of that ilk" means "Donald Trump and similarly corrupt politicians". Historically (and today in Scottish clan names) it means "same": the Macduff of that ilk is the Macduff of Macduff.

    It's definitely not just some-
    thing the chatbots dredge up.



    --
    athel

    Living in Marseilles for 39 years; mainly in England before that,
    with long periods in Singapore, California, Chile and Canada

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Cooper@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 14:08:52 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 08:02:04 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 18:29:16 +0800
    Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

    side not for alt.usage.english, is "ilk" considered a common word, or
    one of the /ChatGPT vocabulary/?

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd say
    if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not just some-
    thing the chatbots dredge up.


    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Ames@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 11:34:09 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street vernacular, is all.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Malcolm Purvis@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 4 06:49:00 2026
    "JA" == John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> writes:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something
    you'd say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's
    definitely not just some-thing the chatbots dredge up.

    It's used in one of my favourite poems by Ogden Nash:

    'The Cow' The cow is of the bovine ilk; One end is moo, the
    other, milk Malcolm


    --
    Malcolm Purvis <malcolm@purvis.id.au>

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Lawrence D?Oliveiro@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 21:27:39 2026
    On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 06:49:00 +1000, Malcolm Purvis wrote:

    It's used in one of my favourite poems by Ogden Nash:

    'The Cow' The cow is of the bovine ilk; One end is moo, the
    other, milk Malcolm

    I think the traditional phrase is ?of that ilk?:

    The cow is a bovine of that ilk;
    One end gives moo, the other milk.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tony Cooper@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 18:01:17 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

    Depends. If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
    going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk". But, if
    he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active
    vocabulary.

    Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Peter Flass@3:633/10 to All on Thu Sep 3 15:26:37 2026
    On 9/3/26 15:01, Tony Cooper wrote:
    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
    vernacular, is all.

    Depends. If the "man on the street" is talking about sports, he's not
    going to say that a player on some team is "of that ilk". But, if
    he's in a discussion about poltitics, "ilk" might be in his active vocabulary.

    Politics _are_ a daily subject of discussion.

    Of course, "ilk" is always pejorative (except in the Nash couplet).

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Hayes@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 4 04:51:21 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

    Of course it's not common.

    Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
    most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
    live in Scotland.

    I believe there is a place called Hayes in a place that used to be
    called Middlesex, and perhaps if I lived there I might, in a jocular
    manner, refer to myself as "Hayes of that Ilk" but even then the
    occasions for using it would be few.




    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Dow Allen@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 4 04:27:12 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)


    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory,
    especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
    "racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."


    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street >vernacular, is all.

    Of course it's not common.

    Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
    most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
    live in Scotland.

    The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

    I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
    often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
    if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

    Are the following all essentially the same?
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
    The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior
    Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

    Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
    Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
    the same name as the surname.
    Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

    Apologies for all the errors!
    (And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
    James

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 4 12:52:28 2026
    On 04/09/2026 12:27 PM, James Dow Allen wrote:

    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
    On Thu, 3 Sep 2026 11:34:09 -0700, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>
    wrote:
    On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 14:08:52 -0400
    Tony Cooper <tonycooper214@gmail.com> wrote:

    "Ilk" isn't common day-to-day vocabulary, but it is something you'd
    say if trying to put on a "literary affect." It's definitely not
    just some- thing the chatbots dredge up.

    I disagree. It's fairly common in political discussions to refer to
    some politician "of that ilk". In this county (USA), political
    discussions are very common.

    In my experience. "of that ilk" in USA is almost always derogatory, especially when applied to political alignment, e.g.
    "racists, MAGA nuts, conspiracy theorists and others of that ilk."


    Oh, it's for sure not archaic - it's just not daily man-on-the-street
    vernacular, is all.

    Of course it's not common.

    Very few people have names the same as the place they live in, and
    most of those that do and would refer to themselves as "of that Ilk"
    live in Scotland.

    The duplication of a surname in Great Britain, with or without the "of" is often associated with a title: the present Prince of Wales' uncle is Charles Spencer, Earl Spencer (though this may be abbreviated to Charles Earl Spencer?).

    I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
    often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
    if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

    Are the following all essentially the same?
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
    The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

    Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
    Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
    the same name as the surname.
    Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

    Apologies for all the errors!
    (And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)
    James

    Dear James,

    Nothing at all, and thank you for a wonderful exposition [1] of the nom- enclature [2] of Scottish clan names.

    Are you by any chance a relation of [3] James P. Allen, the author of
    several books on Egyptology? This is his academic profile.

    https://vivo.brown.edu/display/jpallen


    Best wishes, and happy studies of Egyptology in alt.usage.english!



    [1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered /Chat-
    GPT vocabulary/?

    [2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same? These are two questions for alt. usage.english.

    [3] Unrelated to schemas in relational databases. After all, alt.folk- lore.computers needs to have something to discuss, and why not the re-
    lational schemas of Scottish clan names? Perhaps in I.B.M's. [4] D.B.2?
    Or SQlite? Or PostgreSQL?

    [4] I'm taking several liberations [sic] with typography here.
    --
    Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
    I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From John Ames@3:633/10 to All on Fri Sep 4 08:15:44 2026
    On Fri, 4 Sep 2026 12:52:28 +0800
    Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:

    [1] Is /exposition/ a common term, or another one now considered
    /Chat- GPT vocabulary/?

    [2] Is /nomenclature/ also the same? These are two questions for alt. usage.english.

    "Nomenclature" is considered technical, but still in active use.
    "Exposition" is pretty common, though it's mostly used in the sense of (dialogue the author is consciously using to establish information
    about the background of their story;) the sense of (a methodical
    presentation of a subject in all its aspects) is, AFAIK, mainly used in
    a theological context these days.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Steve Hayes@3:633/10 to All on Sat Sep 5 06:05:33 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)

    On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

    I'm probably wrong but when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
    often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
    if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

    Are the following all essentially the same?
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Clan Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] Chief of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of Buchanan
    - Maurice Buchanan [9th] of That Ilk
    The optional ordinal number ("9th" in this example) shows how many prior >Chiefs there were, and emphasizes that the person is a Chief. But would >Chiefdom be implicit from the "of" anyway?

    Instead of a Chief, the title-holder might be a Laird.
    Of course "of That Ilk" is used only when the Clan or Lairdship has
    the same name as the surname.
    Sir William Fraser, 6th of Philorth may have been a de facto Chief of Fraser, >but wasn't titled such and thus couldn't abbreviate his suffix to "of that Ilk."

    I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
    the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
    with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
    likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
    Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

    When English-speaking people came to South Africa they thought the
    social system of the Zulus was similar to that of the Highland Scots,
    and so they used Scottish terminology to describe it -- chiefs, clans
    etc.

    For example the place where the Biyela clan lived was known as
    kwaBiyela, and most of the people living there had the surname Biyela,
    so the inhabitants of kwaBiyela could probably be quite properly known
    as "Biyela of that Ilk". I at one time had a colleague and mentor
    called Peter Biyela. He didn't live in kwaBiyela, so he wasn't of that
    Ilk, but his ancestors may have been. On comparing family histories we discovered that his grandfather and my great grandfather had fought on
    opposite sides in the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 and so could have
    encountered each other on the battlefield.


    Apologies for all the errors!
    (And what has this to do with the Amarna Letters? :-)

    I'm not sure. What do the Amarna letters have to do with English
    usage?


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From James Dow Allen@3:633/10 to All on Sat Sep 5 09:13:43 2026
    Subject: Re: The Amarna Letters, Hebrew -- wait, which brew? (was: Re: Origin Of Filename ... text and civilization? doomsday?)


    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> posted:
    On Fri, 04 Sep 2026 04:27:12 GMT, James Dow Allen <user4353@newsgrouper.org.invalid> wrote:

    ... when a surname is duplicated in Scotland it
    often denotes that the person is the Chief of the same-named Clan (or,
    if Master instead of Chief, the chief's oldest son).

    I'm no fundi on Scottish titles and social structure, but yes, I think
    the chief of a clan would be the one most likely to live in a home
    with the same name, so the chief the Buchanan clan would be most
    likelyto live in the eponymous place, and so be the Buchanan of
    Buchanan, or the Buchanan of that ilk.

    I don't think so.

    Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of the Franks, King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the English (the title Mathilda used). In other words they were King of a PEOPLE. It was with the increasing dominance of Christianity and the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles generally changed to be King of a TERRITORY.

    Of course, that may seem irrelevant here, since we're speaking of Clan Chiefs rather than Kings. Lesser nobles were associated with places rather than people long before the "Divine Right" transition. BUT that did NOT
    apply to Gaelic Clan Chiefs. A Clan is specifically a group of PEOPLE
    not a group of BUILDINGS. Colin Mor Campbell was
    - Chief of Clan Campbell -- a people
    - Lord of Lochow (Loch Awe) -- a place
    His ggg-grandson Duncan built Inveraray Castle - a residence for the Clan Chiefs.
    It was Duncan's grandson Colin who first used the title Earl of Argyll (a
    LARGE TERRITORY). The Earls of Argyll were also Chiefs of Clan Campbell,
    but felt no need to point this out.

    As just one more example to punctuate the point the Chiefs of Clan Drummond
    may have titled themselves "of That Ilk" (PEOPLE) in the 14th century
    but when they came into possession of 2 pieces of LAND they were known
    as the Drummond Lords of Cargill and/or Stobhall.

    Thank you for your attention to this matter. :-) :-) -- JDA




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)