"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:

On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:

So the kids and teens nowadays hate typing abcde....xyz? They just want
pictures and sound? That's SAD and might ruin our civilization!!

Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like icons and emojis. While Babylon cuneiforms have just lines.

Both Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform have a concept of determinatives, prescribed forms which indicate something about the following word (such as Sumerian DINGIR "a god's name follows").

Later Egyptian uses some symbols for their sound values.

Old Persian cuneiform (as n the Behistun inscriptions) are entirely alphabetic.

--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen

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On 30/08/2026 6:31 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:

"Mr. Chang Man-wai" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com> writes:

On 8/29/2026 10:15 AM, Mr. Chang Man-wai wrote:

So the kids and teens nowadays hate typing abcde....xyz? They just want
pictures and sound? That's SAD and might ruin our civilization!!

Egyptian hieroglyphs are all like icons and emojis. While Babylon cuneiforms >> have just lines.

Both Egyptian hieroglyphs and Sumero-Akkadian cuneiform have a concept of determinatives, prescribed forms which indicate something about the following word (such as Sumerian DINGIR "a god's name follows").

Dear esteemed Rich Alderson,

I believe you need to brush up on your Egyptian hieroglyphs. How long
ago did you study them? From the previous paragraph, it sounds like you haven't used any since the high days of Sumer, some time before before
Abraham left Ur.

In any case, /modern Egyptian hieroglyphs/, and this includes the Pyra-
mid texts onwards, we have the determinatives /after/ the word. This is
not really spelled out in Gardiner's /Egyptian Grammar/, so let's look
at the paragraph in question, page 31, section 23. [1]

[Section] 23. In several of the examples quoted in [section] 22,
the ideogram follows one or more phonograms and ends the word. In
cases such as these it is called a /determinative/, because it ap-
pears to determine the meaning of the foregoing sounds-signs and to
define that meaning in a general way.

Here the key phrase is "ends the word" and does not start it.

And I'll just refer to the start of Lesson II, [section] 22, page 30 for
people interested in the referenced hieroglyphs, as here in alt.folk- lore.computers I stick to the A.S.C.I.I. subset of Unicode. After all,
I expect everyone here in alt.folklore.computers to still have a physi-
cal copy from their days of juniour high school.

Later Egyptian uses some symbols for their sound values.

How later? As far as I know, that was already established in the Pyra-
mid texts. Though I admit I haven't read James P. Allen's /The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts/ yet. Which seems to be conveniently available
in this library for your reading pleasure.


https://archive.org/details/the-ancient-egyptian-pyramid-texts_202103/page/n9/mode/2up

And collectors of rare texts can also purchase a hardcopy on the dreaded Amazon,

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1628371145

which I'm sure everyone here in alt.folklore.computers is now ordering
from Barnes & Noble.

Old Persian cuneiform (as n the Behistun inscriptions) are entirely alphabetic.

I'm afraid I never learned Persian, neither old nor new; so I cannot
comment on that.


Happy studies of the Egyptian hieroglyphs!


[1] For people unfamiliar with the section symbol in typography, here in alt.folklore.computers, will be delighted to know these are the /scope
symbols/ in CPL, the precursor to BCPL, which is -- as everyone here
knows -- the precursor to B, and then C. Both of which used { } for
scope since that's what the A.S.C.I.I. dictated instead.
--
Johann | email: invalid -> com | http://www.myrkraverk.com/blog/
I'm not from the Internet, I just work there. | via Easynews.com https://bsky.app/profile/myrkraverk.bsky.social | for ( ;; ) _:;

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On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

That?s what the ancient Cretans did.

But every now and then, a house or shed or some such structure with a
bunch of clay tablets in it would burn down, and the clay would get
baked in the fire, so that it couldn?t be erased and reused. And so,
samples of their writing survived down through the ages for us to
puzzle over.

Linear B (an old form of Greek) has been cracked, Linear A (even
older) is still a puzzle.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
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This AFC group seems more active than all the other Usenet groups I've
checked put together! Multifarious discussions too -- I've skimmed this
thread a bit and found topics that interest me but have nothing to do with computers, folklore or not.

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

That?s what the ancient Cretans did.

Explain? Were those clay tablets used as scratch-pads? Like short-term Post-it notes? I'd have assumed that most documents worth inscribing
in clay at all, would be worth sealing and preserving by firing the
clay. Weren't clay and the kiln cheaper than the labor of a skilled scribe?


The Mari Letters are a set of 20,000+ clay tablets dating to the 18th century BC, written mostly in Akkadian cuneiform (with some Hurrian and Sumerian).

The Amarna Letters are 382 clay tablets dating to the 13th century BC,
also written in Akkadian cuneiform.

These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari
(Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.

To go even further off-topic, afore-mentioned clay tablets have interesting content. English translations of many of these 3800- and 3300-year-old
letters can be found online. In the English transcriptions, proper names
are rendered phonetically rather than "translated" -- plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari and Amarna which isn't translated.
That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru." This same word appears in other ancient
Near Eastern and Egyptian texts.

Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate with English
'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.

Cheers,
Gmail at jamesdowallen

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
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On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

Were those [Cretan] clay tablets used as scratch-pads?

They were used for short-term accounting/stock-control purposes. For
example, attached to the outside of a jar to indicate what was inside.
Or as manifests for business transactions. Nothing long-term
(obviously), and also nothing of a literary purpose.

And then there is the Phaistos Disc ...

These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.

... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.

Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.

No rabbit-hole. I think it?s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 04:44:55 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

These tablets are mostly, respectively, letters to the King of Mari (Zimri-Lin or his predecessor) and letters to Pharaohs Amenhotep III and Amenhotep IV (Akhenaten) of Egypt.

... plus there is one difficult-to-translate word found at both Mari
and Amarna which isn't translated. That word is "Apiru" or "Habiru."
This same word appears in other ancient Near Eastern and Egyptian
texts.

Most, but certainly not all, scholars believe 'Apiru' to be cognate
with English 'Hebrew.' Best here may be to peer no further down this rabbit-hole.

No rabbit-hole. I think it?s known from elsewhere that the Hebrews
were one of the subject tribes of the Egyptian Empire. Just one of
many.

No. "Apiru" is widely thought to denote "mercenary soldier" or "bandit" or "outsider." Proposed etymologies include "From beyond the river" or
"(from the land of) dust."

Several of the Amarna letters appeal to Pharaoh for soldiers or archers
to defend from invading Apiru. There is a very intriguing mention of
"hapiru" in the more ancient Mari letters. Rather than wading through
my maze of notes and bookmarks, just now I asked the bot for a summary.
Urkesh was Mari's northernmost province, bordering on Hurrian lands.
Terru was its Governor.

Google's Gemini wrote:

In ARM 28, 46, Terru writes a letter to King Zimri-Lim of Mari explaining
that after being forced from power at Urkesh, he had to abandon his
house and leave to live as a displaced outsider (?apiru) in the town
of ?ina?. The Akkadian phrase "ana ?ap?r?tim atta?i" reflects a shift
into a stateless, socio-political exile rather than an ethnic transition.

In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children of Israel."

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
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On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 05:29:39 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
of Israel."

Enslaved by whom?

Not by the Egyptians.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> posted:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2026 05:29:39 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

In Genesis, "Hebrew" appears almost exclusively as an exonym. Among themselves the enslaved "Hebrews" refer to themselves as "Children
of Israel."

Enslaved by whom?

Not by the Egyptians.

???
Egypt's OWN records show multiple enslavements of Habiru:

15th century BC - Tuthmosis III wins Battle of Megiddo, enslaving at least 3600 Habiru.
(He was co-regent with his mother Hatshepsut.)
14th century BC - Amenhotep III. Slaves at Avaris revolted during his reign. (This King claims to have subdued "Yahweh (Yahu) in the land of the Shasu.") 1270 BC - Ramesses II the Great used Hapiru for hard labor
late 13th century BC - Merenptah writes "Israel is laid waste"
circa 1180 BC - Ramesses III; more Hapiru are enslaved

Thank you for you attention to this matter! :-)


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 9/2/26 14:55, Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

On Wed, 2 Sep 2026 12:36:10 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

The clay tablets could just be smoothed out and written over.

That?s what the ancient Cretans did.

But every now and then, a house or shed or some such structure with a
bunch of clay tablets in it would burn down, and the clay would get
baked in the fire, so that it couldn?t be erased and reused. And so,
samples of their writing survived down through the ages for us to
puzzle over.

Linear B (an old form of Greek) has been cracked, Linear A (even
older) is still a puzzle.

Interesting thought. Today one could 3d-print cuneiform tablets, albeit probably better with raised characters instead in impressed to use less material. You could probably use some stone/concrete-like material
instead of clay.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.19
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On Sat, 05 Sep 2026 09:13:43 GMT, James Dow Allen wrote:

Recall that the earliest European Kings were, for example, King of
the Franks, King of the French, King of the Romans, Lady of the
English (the title Mathilda used). In other words they were King of
a PEOPLE. It was with the increasing dominance of Christianity and
the "Divine Right" of Kings that the titles generally changed to be
King of a TERRITORY.

That?s because the ancestors of modern Europeans started out as tribal
peoples, and only moved to setting up their own nation-states later.

Elsewhere in the Middle East, Egypt, Greece etc, rulers had been
rulers of nations for thousands of years already.

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