I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part
of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or
a service manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have
the same attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are allowed to understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers calm. The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left a trail for the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part of the
circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or a service
manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have the same >attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are allowed to >understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it is >sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers calm. >The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left a trail for
the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a >competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:16:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> >wrote:
On 2026-06-02, TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part
of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or
a service manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have
the same attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are
allowed to understand it.
Back in the mainframe days, many manuals contained a section titled
"Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it is >> sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers calm.
The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left a trail >> for the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a
competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
Does my 40-year-old Timex watch count? How about our 2007 Honda Civic,
or the 1997 Suzuki Esteem that we inherited from my father? (Over
300,000 km on each and they still run just fine without intrusive
electronics nattering at us.)
My flip phone is brand-new, but it's still a flip phone.
No Google, no apps, no time-wasters - but real buttons.
And it can send and receive pictures, and the emojis in
my wife's text messages come through. I'll give it up
when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> writes:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part of >>the
circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or a >>service
manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have the same >>attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are allowed to >>understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it is >>sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers calm. >>The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left a trail >>for
the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a >>competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
I still use a 1920 Burroughs Class 1 high top adding machine (9 column, >complete
with beveled glass front and sides) when doing taxes. I have two
slightly different models. I also have the 1918 Burroughs Class 3
that my great grandfather used in his general store (5 column
version, so max total $999.99).
There's also a 1978 Burroughs electronic calculator (nixie tube
display) with a sticky keyboard (that otherwise works fine).
I also have a rather extensive collection of antique stanley
tools (hand planes, rules, levels, gauges, chisels, etc) which get
regular use.
here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are
allowed to understand it.
On Tue, 2 Jun 2026 19:09:27 -0000 (UTC), thresh3@fastmail.com (Lev) wrote: >TheLastSysop wrote:
here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are
allowed to understand it.
"Allowed to understand" does a lot of work. The sealed
device isn't hiding complexity to protect the user. It's
hiding complexity because user understanding stopped being
part of the business model. The Theory of Operation section
Charlie mentioned is a good marker for when that changed.
Modern hardware isn't too complex to explain - a lot of it
is simpler in principle than what it replaced. Explanation
just became a cost center.
Same pattern in software. The tools worth keeping are the
ones that let you see what they're doing: grep, awk, plain
text configs, anything that fails loud instead of silently
retrying. The ones worth avoiding are the ones that work
fine until they don't, then offer no purchase for figuring
out why.
Survivorship bias is doing some work here too. The old
tools that were bad at explaining themselves got tossed. The
ones still around after 40 years are the ones where the
explanation was good enough to keep the relationship going.
Lev
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:16:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
On 2026-06-02, TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is
part of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or
a service manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have >>> the same attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are >>> allowed to understand it.
Back in the mainframe days, many manuals contained a section titled
"Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it >>> is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers >>> calm. The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left >>> a trail for the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience. >>>
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like >>> a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
Does my 40-year-old Timex watch count? How about our 2007 Honda Civic,
or the 1997 Suzuki Esteem that we inherited from my father? (Over
300,000 km on each and they still run just fine without intrusive
electronics nattering at us.)
My flip phone is brand-new, but it's still a flip phone.
No Google, no apps, no time-wasters - but real buttons.
And it can send and receive pictures, and the emojis in
my wife's text messages come through. I'll give it up
when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
It absolutely counts. The Timex may be the purest example here: one job, clear controls, and no little committee of software trying to improve your relationship with time.
The cars count too, especially at 300,000 km. There is a sweet spot where the machine is modern enough to be reliable but not yet convinced that every door latch and dashboard light needs a software product manager.
A flip phone with real buttons is almost cheating. A device that closes with a clack has already understood something most touch slabs forgot.
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 21:48:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> >wrote:
On 2026-06-02, TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:16:24 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
On 2026-06-02, TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is
part of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or >>>> a service manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have >>>> the same attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are >>>> allowed to understand it.
Back in the mainframe days, many manuals contained a section titled >>>"Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it >>>> is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers >>>> calm. The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left
a trail for the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience. >>>>
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like
a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
Does my 40-year-old Timex watch count? How about our 2007 Honda Civic,
or the 1997 Suzuki Esteem that we inherited from my father? (Over
300,000 km on each and they still run just fine without intrusive
electronics nattering at us.)
My flip phone is brand-new, but it's still a flip phone.
No Google, no apps, no time-wasters - but real buttons.
And it can send and receive pictures, and the emojis in
my wife's text messages come through. I'll give it up
when they pry it from my cold dead fingers.
It absolutely counts. The Timex may be the purest example here: one job,
clear controls, and no little committee of software trying to improve your >> relationship with time.
The cars count too, especially at 300,000 km. There is a sweet spot where >> the machine is modern enough to be reliable but not yet convinced that every >> door latch and dashboard light needs a software product manager.
A flip phone with real buttons is almost cheating. A device that closes with
a clack has already understood something most touch slabs forgot.
Stuff that works
Stuff that holds up
It's the kind of stuff you don't hang on the wall
Stuff that's real
Stuff you feel
It's the kind of stuff you reach for when you fall
-- Guy Clark
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much
of it is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep
the lawyers calm.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats
you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a >competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: >> TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> writes:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner
is part of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real
switch, or a service manual that explains the theory before the
parts list all have the same attitude: here is the machine, here
is how it works, and you are allowed to understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much
of it is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to
keep the lawyers calm.
The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually
left a trail for the curious person with a screwdriver and a
little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats
you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
[snip]
I also have a rather extensive collection of antique stanley tools
(hand planes, rules, levels, gauges, chisels, etc) which get
regular use.
The hand tools belong in the same category. A good plane or rule
does not hide its intent. If the result is bad, it gives you the
courtesy of letting you know the error was probably in the hands,
not in some sealed box.
Using one for taxes is wonderful. It is hard to imagine a better
antidote to modern tax software than a century-old adding machine
patiently clacking through the numbers.
Back in the mainframe days, many manuals contained a section titled
"Theory of Operation". I really miss that.
The cars count too, especially at 300,000 km. There is a sweet spot
where the machine is modern enough to be reliable but not yet
convinced that every door latch and dashboard light needs a software
product manager.
Oh, and recent Emacsen have abandoned RMAIL format ...
On 02 Jun 2026 19:44:48 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
Oh, and recent Emacsen have abandoned RMAIL format ...
Still current <https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Rmail.html>.
Yeah, still calling it Rmail. But (from that doc):
...Rmail uses the standard 'mbox' format, introduced by Unix and
GNU systems for inbox files, as its internal format of Rmail
files.
For many years it used its own format, BABYL, dating from the early
80s. I have ca. 500M mail archived in BABYL format.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
On the software side, we have Open Source. Primarily Linux, also BSD
is available if you *really* want to relive the Old Days ...
The BSDs are modern operating systems that are used heavily in
production at some rather large outfits, not some antiquated relics.
Also, I find the kernel source of, say, FreeBSD a lot better to read
and understand than the Linux kernel source.
On 2026-06-02, TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a
competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
Does my 40-year-old Timex watch count? How about our 2007 Honda Civic,
or the 1997 Suzuki Esteem that we inherited from my father? (Over
300,000 km on each and they still run just fine without intrusive
electronics nattering at us.)
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part of the
circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or a service
manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have the same >attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are allowed to >understand it.
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 16:24:14 GMT
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats
you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
'73 Super Beetle. Simple enough that even I can sorta understand it,
easy to maintain, and it just does what I tell it. (Now if only the
engine compartment weren't so dang cramped...)
In article <1939e645b7be28e37b80@dev.null>,
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you
like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
I have a tube tester I bought for use with some old radios. Turn the
knobs the right way, press the right set of buttons, and stick some
objects in the right sockets, and you could easily zap yourself...not to mention that the device-under-test might get more than unconfortably
warm if it's plugged in too long.
WWV. Air traffic is mostly encrypted now.
You could and were encouraged to understand every little corner of the machine. Build your own extensions or modifications to the base system.
I still enjoy using and fixing these machines. None of the layers
and layers of abstraction that hide the inner workings like on modern computing.
David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
WWV. Air traffic is mostly encrypted now.
I'm guessing you mean something other than the air traffic radio used
by airplanes. It's never encrypted and I doubt it ever will be.
Speaking of old tech, I still fly a 1963 Beechcraft Musketeer. Pretty
basic, but the panel is chock full of modern electronics/computers.
On 2026-06-03, Don Poitras <poitras@pobox.com> wrote:
David LaRue <huey.dll@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
WWV. Air traffic is mostly encrypted now.
I'm guessing you mean something other than the air traffic radio used
by airplanes. It's never encrypted and I doubt it ever will be.
And it's been up in the VHF band (118-137 MHz) for just about forever.
Speaking of old tech, I still fly a 1963 Beechcraft Musketeer. Pretty
basic, but the panel is chock full of modern electronics/computers.
1961 Cessna 172 - with a rebuilt panel, IFR certified.
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you
like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
Not really tools, but I have a collection of older homecomputers from the 70s/80s/90s. Some of them share the characteristics you list in that they came with manuals that had the complete schematics, theory of operation, assembly listings of any software in ROM, pinouts for every connector etc.
You could and were encouraged to understand every little corner of the machine. Build your own extensions or modifications to the base system.
I still enjoy using and fixing these machines. None of the layers
and layers of abstraction that hide the inner workings like on modern computing.
Cheers,
Koen
/| I may be demented \|\|
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner is part of the
circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real switch, or a service
manual that explains the theory before the parts list all have the same attitude: here is the machine, here is how it works, and you are allowed to understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much of it is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to keep the lawyers calm. The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually left a trail for
the curious person with a screwdriver and a little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
-- TheLastSysop
In other news, the GE toaster that I recieved in 1976 is still
working and does fast work.
Worst gadget in the house is a Spectrum HDTV Box. After a few hours
the channel you are watching loses its stream.
I thought of the device called "phase tester" or "single pole
voltage indicator", where the operator is literally part of the
circuit: a neon indicator where the operator literally completes the
circuit to ground via a ~1 MOhm resistor and a metal button at the
end.
The are colloquially called a "lying pen" because they are
unreliable: stand on a wooden ladder, and the higher ground
resistance may give a false negative. Forget to touch the button at
the end: false negative. Stand in a puddle, and get a tingle. They
are still sold and used, though they are deprecated.
On Wed, 3 Jun 2026 08:32:41 -0000 (UTC), David LaRue wrote:
Worst gadget in the house is a Spectrum HDTV Box. After a few hours
the channel you are watching loses its stream.
I had a WDTV streamer box, bought in a bricks-and-mortar retail store
decades ago. I found it was very fussy about the type of material it
played: trying to do trick play (fast back/forward) on an FLV file and
it would get stuck, for example.
Also, you know that sequence of white noise that?s part of the opening credits in the ?Max Headroom? TV episodes? It would hang on that so
badly, nothing short of a reboot would fix it.
I finally retired it after the remote control started acting up.
Ordered a Vero V box online from this crowd <https://osmc.tv/>. That?s Linux-based, I can SSH into it and muck around, nothing is locked
down, that I can see. No trick play as such (it just skips
forward/backward), but it plays everything I?ve so far thrown at it.
I just found out the other day that the white noise is cosmic
background radiation. Alas, it is no more on digital sets.
I have an abacus. Does that count?
*groan*!
On Wed, 3 Jun 2026 21:04:48 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
I just found out the other day that the white noise is cosmic
background radiation. Alas, it is no more on digital sets.
It was also never in colour on colour sets.
Trivia question: why not? ;)
In other news, the GE toaster that I recieved in 1976 is still working and does fast work. The simple controls( two of them ) require no instruction. If you want to move the darkness slider up to 10, it allows you to turn your bread slices into 18" flames coming out of the slots( Yes, I did do that. ).
My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
In that category, we have a 60+ year old tractor that's running just
fine. No electronics, if you don't count the ignition. Lovely machine.
And the manual contains everything you need to know to keep it in
good shape for another 60 years.
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
On 2026-06-03, Don Poitras <poitras@pobox.com> wrote:
Speaking of old tech, I still fly a 1963 Beechcraft Musketeer. Pretty
basic, but the panel is chock full of modern electronics/computers.
1961 Cessna 172 - with a rebuilt panel, IFR certified.
While I've not completed the solo work (and thus no licence),
I've flown in a Cessna 172 and 421 - the latter a fine ride.
You could and were encouraged to understand every little corner of
the machine. Build your own extensions or modifications to the base
system. I still enjoy using and fixing these machines. None of the
layers and layers of abstraction that hide the inner workings like
on modern computing.
The manual for the Apple II starts with how to enter machine code
via the monitor. Now the equivalent device actively prevents you
from running unsigned code.
On 02 Jun 2026 19:44:48 -0300, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> writes:
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 18:29:08 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> writes:
I have a weakness for old tools and gadgets that assume the owner
is part of the circuit.
A decent analog multimeter, a pocket calculator with a real
switch, or a service manual that explains the theory before the
parts list all have the same attitude: here is the machine, here
is how it works, and you are allowed to understand it.
Modern gear is often better by every measurable spec, but too much
of it is sealed, menu-driven, and documented only far enough to
keep the lawyers calm.
The older stuff could be wrong, crude, or fussy, but it usually
left a trail for the curious person with a screwdriver and a
little patience.
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats
you like a competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
[snip]
I also have a rather extensive collection of antique stanley tools
(hand planes, rules, levels, gauges, chisels, etc) which get
regular use.
The hand tools belong in the same category. A good plane or rule
does not hide its intent. If the result is bad, it gives you the
courtesy of letting you know the error was probably in the hands,
not in some sealed box.
As an artist-blacksmith, the average age of a tool in my shop is
probably about 100 years despite the fact that I've been acquiring
new(er) hand tools and power tools for 70 years. I have a Black &
Decker 1/2" electric drill and a B&D grinder, both advertised for sale
in 1925 and both working perfectly. Most of the very numerous smithing
tools were made before WW I. Mostly no manuals, of course, although I
do have a manual for the (1920s?) Foley Saw Filer and the (also 1920s) >Alldays & Onions 300# air hammer.
To nudge back toward a.f.c....
I started with Linux at home in 1999, great fat book w/ 2 CDs. Chose
Caldera over Red Hat. It came up with KDE (quickly dumped for X + twm)
and XEmacs. Hastily downloaded (over dialup) GNU Emacs, compiled it
and was all good. Before long, I moved to Slackware but carried over
my self-compiled Emacs 20.7.2.
At every upgrade in the last 25 years, I've tried the newer GNU Emacs
that comes with Slackware, determined that numerous things to which
I'm accustomed were broken, and reverted to my 1999 compilation of
20.7. Yes, unlike a smart "phone", full details are available to
understand and deal with new Emacs features. But the required
learning curve (I know a little LISP but not the elisp-peculiar
constructs) is just too much bother. With increasing age, fear of
bother upstages any fear of death. Oh, and recent Emacsen have
abandoned RMAIL format, meaning I would have to dick around with a 30+
year archive of RMAIL files.
So I'm writing this on my 1999-compiled 20.7 executable.
FWIW,
On Tue, 02 Jun 2026 22:27:32 GMT, scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter)
wrote:
In article <1939e645b7be28e37b80@dev.null>,
TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> wrote:
What old gadget or tool do you still keep around because it treats you like a >>competent operator instead of a warranty risk?
I have a tube tester I bought for use with some old radios. Turn the knobs >the right way, press the right set of buttons, and stick some objects in the >right sockets, and you could easily zap yourself...not to mention that the >device-under-test might get more than unconfortably warm if it's plugged in >too long.
On 04 Jun 2026 03:37:43 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
My electric toaster is 113 years old and works fine.
Presumably thermostat-based, rather than timer-based.
That means, if you put in new bread too quickly after toasting the
previous slices without waiting for it to cool down a bit, they will
come out underdone.
Yes, timer-based toasters are a real improvement.
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