According to John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>:

No. You simply used *casting* .

k=*(int *)(buffer +4) etc etc.

You do have to be careful with this as it's not guaranteed that the
compiler won't take liberties in arranging members of a struct for >optimization purposes, ...

No, the C Standard says:

Within a structure object, the non-bit-field members and the units in which bit-fields
reside have addresses that increase in the order in which they are declared.

There can be bits of padding to get fields aligned as needed, but no reordering.
It is pretty common to use structure declarations with common fields at the front to do varriant records.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 1/2/26 13:26, John Levine wrote:

According to John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com>:

No. You simply used *casting* .

k=*(int *)(buffer +4) etc etc.

You do have to be careful with this as it's not guaranteed that the
compiler won't take liberties in arranging members of a struct for
optimization purposes, ...

No, the C Standard says:

Within a structure object, the non-bit-field members and the units in which bit-fields
reside have addresses that increase in the order in which they are declared.

There can be bits of padding to get fields aligned as needed, but no reordering.
It is pretty common to use structure declarations with common fields at the front to do varriant records.

Hmmm ... with arrays of simple types you can
advance the pointer by 'x' and get the 'x'-th
element. In theory you can manually peek 'x'
(times type) bytes ahead in memory too.

Is that not for-sure correct with variant records ?


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

It appears that c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> said:

On 1/2/26 13:26, John Levine wrote:

No, the C Standard says:

Within a structure object, the non-bit-field members and the units in which bit-fields
reside have addresses that increase in the order in which they are declared.

There can be bits of padding to get fields aligned as needed, but no reordering.
It is pretty common to use structure declarations with common fields at the >> front to do varriant records.

Hmmm ... with arrays of simple types you can
advance the pointer by 'x' and get the 'x'-th
element. In theory you can manually peek 'x'
(times type) bytes ahead in memory too.

Is that not for-sure correct with variant records ?

C doesn't have variant records, but you can fake them with structures with common initial fields. The different structures can be different sizes
so the usual approach is to malloc() them one at a time and use a pointer to it.

As bonus confusion, C allows the last field in a structure to be an array of unspecified size, e.g.

struct countedstring {
int length;
char data[];
};

Then for a string of innitialized from srcstring you'd say something like:

struct countedstring *p = malloc(sizeof(struct countedstring) + strlen(srcstring));

length = nchars;

memcpy((void *)p->data, (void *)srcstring, strlen(srcstring));




--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

According to Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid>:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2026 08:49:25 -0800, John Ames wrote:

... it's not guaranteed that the compiler won't take liberties in
arranging members of a struct for optimization purposes ...

The C23 spec (section 6.2.5, ?Types?) does say the member objects of a
struct type need to be ?sequentially allocated?.

That language has been there a long time. It's in my copy of C11 and it
wasn't new then. It's probably always been there since we wrote code
that used the common struct prefix hack in K&R C.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Fri, 2 Jan 2026 22:41:42 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

... it's not guaranteed that the compiler won't take liberties in
arranging members of a struct for optimization purposes ...

The C23 spec (section 6.2.5, ?Types?) does say the membe

r objects of

a struct type need to be ?sequentially allocated?.

That language has been there a long time. It's in my copy of C11 and
it wasn't new then. It's probably always been there since we wrote
code that used the common struct prefix hack in K&R C.

I went to check and, lo, it's in the C89 spec as well; as was already
indicated by Lawrence, I must've been thinking of compilers inserting
padding for alignment purposes. Which does raise the same basic concern
(the block of memory allocated to a struct is not *necessarily* a 1:1 concatenation of its members, and casting pointers between different
data structures should be done with caution,) but my recollection was
evidently in need of clarification.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2026 20:32:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:

C doesn't have variant records, but you can fake them with structures
with common initial fields. The different structures can be different
sizes so the usual approach is to malloc() them one at a time and use a
pointer to it.

Another approach is to have a struct containing union of structs with a
flag in the top level struct indicating which child struct to use in the >union. The structs in the union can also have unions so you can build a
real octopus.

That works but the union is the size of the largest struct so it can waste
a lot of space compared to allocating each struct's actual size. I realize this doesn't work for arrays of structs or unions, but it works fine for
arrays of pointers to them.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

John Levine wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2026 20:32:53 -0000 (UTC), John Levine wrote:

C doesn't have variant records, but you can fake them with structures
with common initial fields. The different structures can be different
sizes so the usual approach is to malloc() them one at a time and use a
pointer to it.

Another approach is to have a struct containing union of structs with a >>flag in the top level struct indicating which child struct to use in the >>union. The structs in the union can also have unions so you can build a >>real octopus.

That works but the union is the size of the largest struct so it can waste
a lot of space compared to allocating each struct's actual size. I realize this doesn't work for arrays of structs or unions, but it works fine for arrays of pointers to them.

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C, rather
than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But
that's the last time I tried that.

--
Try not to have a good time ... This is supposed to be educational.
-- Charles Schulz

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> writes:

It appears that c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> said:

On 1/2/26 13:26, John Levine wrote:

No, the C Standard says:

Within a structure object, the non-bit-field members and the units in which bit-fields
reside have addresses that increase in the order in which they are declared.

There can be bits of padding to get fields aligned as needed, but no reordering.
It is pretty common to use structure declarations with common fields at the >>> front to do varriant records.

Hmmm ... with arrays of simple types you can
advance the pointer by 'x' and get the 'x'-th
element. In theory you can manually peek 'x'
(times type) bytes ahead in memory too.

Is that not for-sure correct with variant records ?

C doesn't have variant records, but you can fake them with structures with >common initial fields. The different structures can be different sizes
so the usual approach is to malloc() them one at a time and use a pointer to it.

As bonus confusion, C allows the last field in a structure to be an array of >unspecified size, e.g.

struct countedstring {
int length;
char data[];
};

Then for a string of innitialized from srcstring you'd say something like:

struct countedstring *p = malloc(sizeof(struct countedstring) + strlen(srcstring));

length = nchars;

memcpy((void *)p->data, (void *)srcstring, strlen(srcstring));

A particularly useful paradigm with network-style packets, where you have
one (or more) fixed headers followed by a variable amount of data.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

rbowman wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C, rather
than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But that's
the last time I tried that.

A class is a glorified struct. I remember heated discussions at one of the Boston Computer Society's meeting before 'C++' became a name about 'C with Classes' and whether a new language was needed.

C++ is wayyyyy beyond C w/classes now. Example: templates,
promises, futures, and a greatly expanded Standard Library (e.g.
the <random> functions)..

'C with Classes' is now a derogatory term that describes the sort of C++ I write. Charles Petzhold has written a number of books on programming for Windows. He has an intense dislike for C++ so if you can track down some
of the first editions of 'Programming Windows' they are all C. The 6th edition was C# which he said was what should have been all along.

Does Petzhold still have the Windows tattoo? :-D

I was on a project where I had to use C#. Not bad, but I got a
good laugh at things like the "using" kludge to mimic the
exception-safety of C++ and that classes are always passed by
reference even though the function call looks like passing a
value.

The C approach was educational since it exposed some of the magic lke vtables, and the magical 'this' is only another parameter passed in the first location.

Python's "self".

--
Violence stinks, no matter which end of it you're on. But now and then
there's nothing left to do but hit the other person over the head with a
frying pan. Sometimes people are just begging for that frypan, and if we weaken for a moment and honor their request, we should regard it as
impulsive philanthropy, which we aren't in any position to afford, but shouldn't regret it too loudly lest we spoil the purity of the deed.
-- Tom Robbins

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-03 20:43, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C, rather
than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But that's
the last time I tried that.

A class is a glorified struct. I remember heated discussions at one of the Boston Computer Society's meeting before 'C++' became a name about 'C with Classes' and whether a new language was needed.

'C with Classes' is now a derogatory term that describes the sort of C++ I write. Charles Petzhold has written a number of books on programming for Windows. He has an intense dislike for C++ so if you can track down some
of the first editions of 'Programming Windows' they are all C. The 6th edition was C# which he said was what should have been all along.

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to pronounce
that one).


--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Carlos E.R. wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On 2026-01-03 20:43, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C, rather >>> than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But that's
the last time I tried that.

A class is a glorified struct. I remember heated discussions at one of the >> Boston Computer Society's meeting before 'C++' became a name about 'C with >> Classes' and whether a new language was needed.

'C with Classes' is now a derogatory term that describes the sort of C++ I >> write. Charles Petzhold has written a number of books on programming for
Windows. He has an intense dislike for C++ so if you can track down some
of the first editions of 'Programming Windows' they are all C. The 6th
edition was C# which he said was what should have been all along.

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

AI Overview

C++ and C# are both derived from the C language family but
target different programming needs:

C++ offers high performance and low-level hardware control,
making it ideal for systems programming and game engines,
while C# provides a managed, higher-level environment for
easier and faster development of web, desktop, and mobile
applications

Kind of analogous to C++ versus Java.

I don't really agree that C# is easier. You still have to develop
a mental model of the language and master adjunct frameworks like
.NET.

--
Q: How much does it cost to ride the Unibus?
A: 2 bits.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-04, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

I don't really agree that C# is easier. You still have to develop
a mental model of the language and master adjunct frameworks like
.NET.

Does C# qualify as a Microsoft proprietary language?
Or are there implementations on OSes other than Windows
(and compilers, either open source or available from
other vendors)?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 15:14:30 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

It?s spelled ?C#?, but it?s pronounced ?C??.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

rbowman wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 21:17:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D?Oliveiro wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 15:14:30 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

It?s spelled ?C#?, but it?s pronounced ?C??.

For once sanity prevailed and they didn't use a character that would have been a pain in the ass evermore.

Except in a shell script :-D

--
For the fashion of Minas Tirith was such that it was built on seven levels, each delved into a hill, and about each was set a wall, and in each wall
was a gate.
-- J.R.R. Tolkien, "The Return of the King"

[Quoted in "VMS Internals and Data Structures", V4.4, when
referring to system overview.]


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-04 15:43, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On 2026-01-03 20:43, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C, rather >>>> than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But that's
the last time I tried that.

A class is a glorified struct. I remember heated discussions at one of the >>> Boston Computer Society's meeting before 'C++' became a name about 'C with >>> Classes' and whether a new language was needed.

'C with Classes' is now a derogatory term that describes the sort of C++ I >>> write. Charles Petzhold has written a number of books on programming for >>> Windows. He has an intense dislike for C++ so if you can track down some >>> of the first editions of 'Programming Windows' they are all C. The 6th
edition was C# which he said was what should have been all along.

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to pronounce
that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

Mmm... no, I don't think I get it. Maybe something cultural in it.

AI Overview

C++ and C# are both derived from the C language family but
target different programming needs:

C++ offers high performance and low-level hardware control,
making it ideal for systems programming and game engines,
while C# provides a managed, higher-level environment for
easier and faster development of web, desktop, and mobile
applications

Kind of analogous to C++ versus Java.

I don't really agree that C# is easier. You still have to develop
a mental model of the language and master adjunct frameworks like
.NET.

Ok :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-05 04:09, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 04 Jan 2026 19:41:11 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-01-04, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

I don't really agree that C# is easier. You still have to develop a
mental model of the language and master adjunct frameworks like .NET.

Does C# qualify as a Microsoft proprietary language?
Or are there implementations on OSes other than Windows (and compilers,
either open source or available from other vendors)?

https://www.mono-project.com/

Sort of... Using the dotnet sdk on Windows or Linux is sort of like
using venv in Python or the express generator with node/express.

dotnet new console -n world

creates a new console application in the 'world' directory with the
director structure and a very minimalist Program.cs with

Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");

dotnet build followed by

$ dotnet run
Hello, World!

works. Packages are added with Nuget, which is like npm or pip.

https://www.nuget.org/

It's free and open source but the entire ecosystem uses the .NET
terminology. I doubt anyone who has no experience developing on Windows
is going to pick C#. It's not that different from Java except it was initially a Windows only language and not sold as cross platform, run anywhere, from the beginning.

Then that is why I am not familiar with it.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-04 20:48, rbowman wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 15:14:30 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2026-01-03 20:43, rbowman wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C,
rather than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But
that's the last time I tried that.

A class is a glorified struct. I remember heated discussions at one of
the Boston Computer Society's meeting before 'C++' became a name about
'C with Classes' and whether a new language was needed.

'C with Classes' is now a derogatory term that describes the sort of
C++ I write. Charles Petzhold has written a number of books on
programming for Windows. He has an intense dislike for C++ so if you
can track down some of the first editions of 'Programming Windows' they
are all C. The 6th edition was C# which he said was what should have
been all along.

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to pronounce
that one).

C Sharp. In the late '90s Microsoft released Visual J++, their implementation of Java. I still have the media with an IDE similar to
Visual Studio. It was quite nice but did not meet Sun's purity test so Sun sued Microsoft.

C# was released in the early 2000s, with Hejlsberg as the principal
designer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg

He'd also developed J++ so C# incorporated the lessons learned from that
as well as C++. I don't really like C++ and find C# a lot better for
Windows programming. Mono was an early attempt to make it cross platform
and is still around. The alternative is to install the .NET SDK.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/install/linux

That includes the csc compiler:

$ csc
Microsoft (R) Visual C# Compiler version 3.9.0-6.21124.20 (db94f4cc) Copyright (C) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

On Linux the ability to build GUIs has been problematic. There i a Gtk# library but I've never used it.

https://www.mono-project.com/docs/gui/gtksharp/

You can do both console and ASP .NET backend apps. For kicks, I did a
command line app to download information from the iTunes database in
Python and C#. The syntax differs of course but the complexity is very similar compared to doing it in C or C++.

Since csc emits an IL that depends on the framework runtime by passing
flags you can build Linux packages on Windows and vice versa. You can also target ARM devices.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/iot/deployment

MS managed to create more confusion that normal. .NET Framework was the standard runtime on Windows boxes. The .NET Core project was aimed at
cross platform solutions and had its own numbering so .NET Core 3.x was contemporaneous with .NET Framework 4.7x. At that point they decided Core was the future so .NET 5.0 was .NET Core with .NET Framework 4.8 being
the last of what everone called .NET. .NET 10 is the current release.

So mostly a M$ thing, at the time I was not involved with M$, so that's
why I am not familiar with it. My profesional programming reached till
W95, so Pascal, C, Basic, and a tiny bit of asm. Not necessarily in that order.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> writes:

On 2026-01-04 15:43, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to pronounce >>> that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

Mmm... no, I don't think I get it. Maybe something cultural in it.

In musical notation the '#' indicates a half-step up (sharp) and
a 'b' indicates a half step down (flat).


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:43:40 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

The impish might prefer "C-hash" ;P


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-05, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:43:40 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

The impish might prefer "C-hash" ;P

C-pound, because of what it makes you want to do with your head against
a wall?

Niklas
--
Which brings up an important BOFHly question: How do you go about pissing on the
grave of someone whose ashes were buried at sea? Taking a whiz off the end of the pier just isn't satisfying enough.
-- Brian Kantor

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> writes:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:43:40 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

The impish might prefer "C-hash" ;P

Surely it would be "C-octothorpe"?

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-05, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2026 09:43:40 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

The impish might prefer "C-hash" ;P

C-pound, C-octothorpe...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Sat, 3 Jan 2026 07:03:38 -0500
Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

I once created an audio playback app with class hierarchies in C,
rather than C++. It was an interesting experiment, and it worked. But
that's the last time I tried that.

Yeah, I've long thought something like that would be an interesting exercise...but then I have to ask myself whether it'd be worth the
trouble in anything I'm actually *doing.*


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Mon, 5 Jan 2026 13:25:51 +0100, Carlos E.R. wrote:

Carlos E.R. wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

What's the difference between C++ and C#? (I don't know how to
pronounce that one).

C-sharp. (Get it? Get it?)

Mmm... no, I don't think I get it. Maybe something cultural in it.

I keep reading it as ?C-hash? ... as in ?making a hash of C? ...

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

Niklas
--
This year's Corporate Technology Expo was no different than the ones for years previous. [...] The scene was a three-hour, seemingly unending procession of PowerPoint slides with enough laser pointers to take down an incoming ICBM.
-- http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/MUMPS-Madness.aspx

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 5 Jan 2026 23:28:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

I have no idea why.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-06, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 23:28:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

I have no idea why.

In days of yore, "#" was often used by dealers in bulk products
as an abbreviation for pounds weight. For instance, a sack of
chicken feed might consist of "50# laying mash".

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 06 Jan 2026 00:23:56 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

On 2026-01-06, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 23:28:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

I have no idea why.

In days of yore, "#" was often used by dealers in bulk products as
an abbreviation for pounds weight. For instance, a sack of chicken
feed might consist of "50# laying mash".

Most of us used ?lb?.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Niklas Karlsson wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

Call Morgan & Morgan! #LAW!

C-hashtag!

--
#OBBO

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

Lawrence =?iso-8859-13?q?D=FFOliveiro?= <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

On 5 Jan 2026 23:28:43 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

On 2026-01-05, Lawrence D?Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

On 5 Jan 2026 18:10:08 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote:

C-pound ...

?Cœ??

# is often spoken as "pound" in the USA. Notably when instructing
someone to enter things on a phone keypad.

I have no idea why.

That's not surprising.

Give me 10# of potatoes, please.

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 6 Jan 2026 06:24:00 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

In days of yore, "#" was often used by dealers in bulk products as
an abbreviation for pounds weight. For instance, a sack of chicken
feed might consist of "50# laying mash".

Most of us used ?lb?.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign#Usage

"When ?#? is after a number, it is read as "pound" or "po

unds",

meaning the unit of weight.[54][55] The text "5# bag of flour" would
mean "five- pound bag of flour". This is rare outside North America."

Most of us don't live in New Zealand.

That's been obscure even in the US for many a year, frankly - but the
legacy pronunciation of # survives to this day.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-06, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

On 6 Jan 2026 06:24:00 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

In days of yore, "#" was often used by dealers in bulk products as
an abbreviation for pounds weight. For instance, a sack of chicken
feed might consist of "50# laying mash".

Most of us used ?lb?.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_sign#Usage

"When ?#? is after a number, it is read as "pound" or "pounds",
meaning the unit of weight.[54][55] The text "5# bag of flour" would
mean "five- pound bag of flour". This is rare outside North America."

Most of us don't live in New Zealand.

That's been obscure even in the US for many a year, frankly - but the
legacy pronunciation of # survives to this day.

I suspect that this is because "pound" is (at least somewhat)
easier and faster to pronounce than the others. As we all know,
convenience trumps just about everything else - remember the
"baud" vs "bps" confusion.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Tue, 06 Jan 2026 18:57:03 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

That's been obscure even in the US for many a year, frankly - but
the legacy pronunciation of # survives to this day.

I suspect that this is because "pound" is (at least somewhat)
easier and faster to pronounce than the others. As we all know,
convenience trumps just about everything else - remember the
"baud" vs "bps" confusion.

Seems plausible - may also have to do with phone-tree systems and how intelligible "hash" is or isn't over a muffled line, vs. a word that
begins and ends with hard consonants.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-06, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 06 Jan 2026 18:57:03 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

That's been obscure even in the US for many a year, frankly - but
the legacy pronunciation of # survives to this day.

I suspect that this is because "pound" is (at least somewhat)
easier and faster to pronounce than the others. As we all know,
convenience trumps just about everything else - remember the
"baud" vs "bps" confusion.

Seems plausible - may also have to do with phone-tree systems and how intelligible "hash" is or isn't over a muffled line, vs. a word that
begins and ends with hard consonants.

I hadn't thought of that angle. Indeed, aeronautical radio
phraseology has evolved to deal with just that sort of problem.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 06/01/2026 18:57, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

remember the
"baud" vs "bps" confusion.

IIRC the are not , strictly, the same thing...

--
It is the folly of too many to mistake the echo of a London coffee-house
for the voice of the kingdom.

Jonathan Swift



--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On Wed, 07 Jan 2026 06:33:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

Seems plausible - may also have to do with phone-tree systems and
how intelligible "hash" is or isn't over a muffled line, vs. a word
that begins and ends with hard consonants.

I hadn't thought of that angle. Indeed, aeronautical radio
phraseology has evolved to deal with just that sort of problem.

Many's the time I've had to resort to the NATO phonetic alphabet when
trying to get a customer to type something in over the phone.


--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

John Ames wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2026 06:33:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

Seems plausible - may also have to do with phone-tree systems and
how intelligible "hash" is or isn't over a muffled line, vs. a word
that begins and ends with hard consonants.

I hadn't thought of that angle. Indeed, aeronautical radio
phraseology has evolved to deal with just that sort of problem.

Many's the time I've had to resort to the NATO phonetic alphabet when
trying to get a customer to type something in over the phone.

Like "It all went tango uniform"? A real "charlie foxtrot"?

--
Rincewind had generally been considered by his tutors to be a natural wizard
in the same way that fish are natural mountaineers. He probably would have been thrown out of Unseen University anyway--he couldn't remember spells and smoking made him feel ill.
-- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic"

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-07, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote:

Many's the time I've had to resort to the NATO phonetic alphabet when
trying to get a customer to type something in over the phone.

I use it habitually, if I'm speaking English. But with a slight
modification: "S for sugar". I found that no matter how much I
emphasized siERRa, they nonetheless put Z for zero.

Niklas
--
[It] contains "vegetable stabilizer" which sounds ominous. How unstable are vegetables?
-- Jeff Zahn

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Wed, 7 Jan 2026 09:48:29 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 06/01/2026 18:57, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

remember the "baud" vs "bps" confusion.

IIRC the are not , strictly, the same thing...

My point exactly.

They usually were back in the 1200 baud days. Then things got
complicated.

Not even then. When I got my first 1200-bps modem, my .sig
block said, "600 baud and proud of it!" When I moved up to
a 2400-bps modem, that statement still applied.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)

On 2026-01-07 18:23, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

John Ames wrote this post by blinking in Morse code:

On Wed, 07 Jan 2026 06:33:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

Seems plausible - may also have to do with phone-tree systems and
how intelligible "hash" is or isn't over a muffled line, vs. a word
that begins and ends with hard consonants.

I hadn't thought of that angle. Indeed, aeronautical radio
phraseology has evolved to deal with just that sort of problem.

Many's the time I've had to resort to the NATO phonetic alphabet when
trying to get a customer to type something in over the phone.

Like "It all went tango uniform"? A real "charlie foxtrot"?

I tried to use that over the years several times here, but nobody
understands it, unless they are HAMs or aviators. I have to use a local variant based in the name of the provinces of Spain.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
ES??, EU??;

--- PyGate Linux v1.5.2
* Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)