On 02 Oct 2026, anonymous <noreply@oc2mx.net> posted some news:53c6567485207c543223@n2n.oc2mx.net:
Thankfully I don't have Windows 11 or Copilot on my laptop anymore
because I changed to Debian Linux KDE Plasma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LmXD1AG0Jo
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
On 02 Oct 2026, anonymous <noreply@oc2mx.net> posted some
news:53c6567485207c543223@n2n.oc2mx.net:
Thankfully I don't have Windows 11 or Copilot on my laptop anymore
because I changed to Debian Linux KDE Plasma.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LmXD1AG0Jo
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
Copilot doesn't bother me, and I don't know if I disabled it or just
haven't run into it in the Windows interface yet.
I don't have a good long term solution for A.I.-less operating systems.
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
On 02 Oct 2026, anonymous <noreply@oc2mx.net> posted some
news:53c6567485207c543223@n2n.oc2mx.net:
Thankfully I don't have Windows 11 or Copilot on my laptop anymore
because I changed to Debian Linux KDE Plasma.
https://www.youtube
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
Copilot doesn't bother me, and I don't know if I disabled it or just
haven't run into it in the Windows interface yet.
I don't have a good long term solution for A.I.-less operating systems.
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
I don't have a good long term solution for A.I.-less operating systems.
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:[]
:-)I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
Customers word it this way:
"I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
Customers don't care about architectural niceties and "blame assignment", they
just want your shitty OS to work.
Frictional things would be "failure to boot", "Start Menu does not work", "Display Control panel does not work or is functionally inaccessible".
The latter one being, when you can enter settings, but the Apply
button is off the screen :-) They actually fixed that in Linux,
by holding down a modifier key and using left-mouse, you can
grab the panel by its surface and scoot it up the screen until
the Apply button can finally be accessed. Nobody has the notion
of actually measuring what is displayed and configuring it so
the stuff is visible.
Just the general complexity of OSes, there are "too many processes
running, for the amount of work". It's like a jobs fair for software
A "basic" OS should fit in 350MB, but they don't always come
close to that, and they can guzzle quite a bit of resources to support
"the latest whim". Various schemes that could be paged in from storage,
When I'm sitting here telling people they need a 6 core processor--
minimum, that runs at 5GHz, for a "good time", something is very wrong.
You will remember we used to get more-snappy response, with a lot
less processor, in the past.
Paul
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
"I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
"I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
<snip/>
I agree with your observations, but here, my question was a bit rhetorical. I mean, calling something a "piece of shit" is, from my point of view, a bit, well, overly condescending.
I was triggered by the mentioning of Debian, of course, which I consider to be
quite nice. I'm using it for more than 25 years now, and I can really appreciate all the work people put into it. So, calling it a "piece of shit" seems to be a rather ignorant remark, so to say.
Cheers,
Bob
On Sun, 10/25/2026 5:13 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
"I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
<snip/>
I agree with your observations, but here, my question was a bit rhetorical. I
mean, calling something a "piece of shit" is, from my point of view, a bit, >> well, overly condescending.
I was triggered by the mentioning of Debian, of course, which I consider to be
quite nice. I'm using it for more than 25 years now, and I can really
appreciate all the work people put into it. So, calling it a "piece of shit" >> seems to be a rather ignorant remark, so to say.
Cheers,
Bob
There are individual people working on packages.
We're not talking about them, particularly.
Usually, with two levels of curation, a large
quantity of packages can be in pretty good shape.
In the big scheme of things, it is the tree herder who
prepares the distro, that makes or breaks it. That's
where the shit comes from. Shipping something that
hasn't been properly tested, you're going to get
a roasting for that.
If the majority of distros can reach a certain quality
level, you should be able to as well, if you are
calling yourself a Tree Herder.
I downloaded a distro for the first time three weeks
ago. Booted the DVD. The display didn't start.
Fixed that manually and now I'm in GParted, trying
to partition the disk the way they want it (the instructions
are to manually partition it). The mouse stops working!
I can't click Apply!. And GParted is not <tab>/keyboard
compatible, cannot <tab> my way to the Apply button.
Screwed. Wasted one DVD, and hours of time. What do
we call such a thing ? "Shit!" And the sad part, is
available info shows that distro had been shipping things
for *ten years*. What were the other releases like ?
Why would I be even remotely curious ? There were
just two reviews in Distrowatch, rating the distro
as a "9". Close to perfection, in other words.
The reviews must have been via Mom and Dad.
That doesn't happen too often. I have quite a pile
of DVDs and ISOs here. Some of them have been rough,
but with a bit of practice and the right forum threads,
you can find enough recipe info to finish the install.
Like, one of them, the repo pointers were wrong
in the release. But by using a bit of guesswork,
I made up a domain name and it worked! And I had
a repo that worked just fine, likely as it was
intended to work. Oops.
The Debian installer has erased two hard drives here,
when it was not instructed to erase them. Debian is
on my list of "trust but verify". To install Debian
here today, that's on the "back up the disk first
before you proceed" list. See, not a problem, ONCE IT
IS ON THE LIST. The Win2K installer CD, also
wiped a disk drive and it IS ON THE LIST. I recovered
that drive with TestDisk, as only the MBR got hammered.
To achieve that result, you go through a couple steps
in Win2K installer, then Cancel, and your drive has
taken damage at that point. No formatter attempted to run.
Surprisingly, that's the list. Debian and Win2K.
Everyone else entered the room without destroying
anything.
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 10/25/2026 5:13 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time.
All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
"I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
<snip/>
I agree with your observations, but here, my question was a bit rhetorical. I
mean, calling something a "piece of shit" is, from my point of view, a bit, >>> well, overly condescending.
I was triggered by the mentioning of Debian, of course, which I consider to be
quite nice. I'm using it for more than 25 years now, and I can really
appreciate all the work people put into it. So, calling it a "piece of shit"
seems to be a rather ignorant remark, so to say.
Cheers,
Bob
There are individual people working on packages.
We're not talking about them, particularly.
Usually, with two levels of curation, a large
quantity of packages can be in pretty good shape.
In the big scheme of things, it is the tree herder who
prepares the distro, that makes or breaks it. That's
where the shit comes from. Shipping something that
hasn't been properly tested, you're going to get
a roasting for that.
If the majority of distros can reach a certain quality
level, you should be able to as well, if you are
calling yourself a Tree Herder.
I downloaded a distro for the first time three weeks
ago. Booted the DVD. The display didn't start.
Fixed that manually and now I'm in GParted, trying
to partition the disk the way they want it (the instructions
are to manually partition it). The mouse stops working!
I can't click Apply!. And GParted is not <tab>/keyboard
compatible, cannot <tab> my way to the Apply button.
Screwed. Wasted one DVD, and hours of time. What do
we call such a thing ? "Shit!" And the sad part, is
available info shows that distro had been shipping things
for *ten years*. What were the other releases like ?
Why would I be even remotely curious ? There were
just two reviews in Distrowatch, rating the distro
as a "9". Close to perfection, in other words.
The reviews must have been via Mom and Dad.
That doesn't happen too often. I have quite a pile
of DVDs and ISOs here. Some of them have been rough,
but with a bit of practice and the right forum threads,
you can find enough recipe info to finish the install.
Like, one of them, the repo pointers were wrong
in the release. But by using a bit of guesswork,
I made up a domain name and it worked! And I had
a repo that worked just fine, likely as it was
intended to work. Oops.
The Debian installer has erased two hard drives here,
when it was not instructed to erase them. Debian is
on my list of "trust but verify". To install Debian
here today, that's on the "back up the disk first
before you proceed" list. See, not a problem, ONCE IT
IS ON THE LIST. The Win2K installer CD, also
wiped a disk drive and it IS ON THE LIST. I recovered
that drive with TestDisk, as only the MBR got hammered.
To achieve that result, you go through a couple steps
in Win2K installer, then Cancel, and your drive has
taken damage at that point. No formatter attempted to run.
Surprisingly, that's the list. Debian and Win2K.
Everyone else entered the room without destroying
anything.
:)
I must say, one of the reasons I like Debian: when I was
"less in the know", their management software (be it dselect,
apt, ..) saved me not once for disaster.
Thing is, yes, there are, well, "things", but that, in this case,
never qualifies for the category "shit". That's what I wanted
to convey.
I'm grateful for the work people have put into it, and keep on
doing.
Regards,
Bob
P.S. Did I mention that I appreciate your sometimes very insightful
and detailed posts? I think not, but here it is: nice posts!
Grazi!
On 11/2/2026 12:39 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 10/25/2026 5:13 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson
<johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time. >>>>>>
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context
of operating systems?
ÿÿ "I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
<snip/>
I agree with your observations, but here, my question was a bit
rhetorical. I
mean, calling something a "piece of shit" is, from my point of view,
a bit,
well, overly condescending.
I was triggered by the mentioning of Debian, of course, which I
consider to be
quite nice. I'm using it for more than 25 years now, and I can really
appreciate all the work people put into it. So, calling it a "piece
of shit"
seems to be a rather ignorant remark, so to say.
Cheers,
ÿÿ Bob
There are individual people working on packages.
We're not talking about them, particularly.
Usually, with two levels of curation, a large
quantity of packages can be in pretty good shape.
In the big scheme of things, it is the tree herder who
prepares the distro, that makes or breaks it. That's
where the shit comes from. Shipping something that
hasn't been properly tested, you're going to get
a roasting for that.
If the majority of distros can reach a certain quality
level, you should be able to as well, if you are
calling yourself a Tree Herder.
I downloaded a distro for the first time three weeks
ago. Booted the DVD. The display didn't start.
Fixed that manually and now I'm in GParted, trying
to partition the disk the way they want it (the instructions
are to manually partition it). The mouse stops working!
I can't click Apply!. And GParted is not <tab>/keyboard
compatible, cannot <tab> my way to the Apply button.
Screwed. Wasted one DVD, and hours of time. What do
we call such a thing ? "Shit!" And the sad part, is
available info shows that distro had been shipping things
for *ten years*. What were the other releases like ?
Why would I be even remotely curious ? There were
just two reviews in Distrowatch, rating the distro
as a "9". Close to perfection, in other words.
The reviews must have been via Mom and Dad.
That doesn't happen too often. I have quite a pile
of DVDs and ISOs here. Some of them have been rough,
but with a bit of practice and the right forum threads,
you can find enough recipe info to finish the install.
Like, one of them, the repo pointers were wrong
in the release. But by using a bit of guesswork,
I made up a domain name and it worked! And I had
a repo that worked just fine, likely as it was
intended to work. Oops.
The Debian installer has erased two hard drives here,
when it was not instructed to erase them. Debian is
on my list of "trust but verify". To install Debian
here today, that's on the "back up the disk first
before you proceed" list. See, not a problem, ONCE IT
IS ON THE LIST. The Win2K installer CD, also
wiped a disk drive and it IS ON THE LIST. I recovered
that drive with TestDisk, as only the MBR got hammered.
To achieve that result, you go through a couple steps
in Win2K installer, then Cancel, and your drive has
taken damage at that point. No formatter attempted to run.
Surprisingly, that's the list. Debian and Win2K.
Everyone else entered the room without destroying
anything.
:)
I must say, one of the reasons I like Debian: when I was
"less in the know", their management software (be it dselect,
apt, ..) saved me not once for disaster.
Thing is, yes, there are, well, "things", but that, in this case,
never qualifies for the category "shit". That's what I wanted
to convey.
I'm grateful for the work people have put into it, and keep on
doing.
Regards,
ÿÿ Bob
P.S. Did I mention that I appreciate your sometimes very insightful
ÿÿÿÿÿ and detailed posts? I think not, but here it is: nice posts!
ÿÿÿÿÿ Grazi!
I remember when I "upgraded" my laptop from HDD to SSD.ÿ I unplugged the
old HDD while booting up the Windows 10 installation DVD, and did a
clean install on the fresh SSD -- of course.
Then after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD
in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
Point being, I did not trust the Windows 10 installer to leave the old
disk alone.ÿ By necessity, I had to trust the new Windows 10 install-
ation, and it hasn't trashed the HDD yet.
So my recommendation, if you have the budget, to always install on a
fresh disk, and not muck about with partitions because you never know
when an installer will trash something.
On 11/01/26 3:42 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
On 11/2/2026 12:39 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Sun, 10/25/2026 5:13 AM, Bob wrote:
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> writes:
On Wed, 10/7/2026 5:30 AM, Bob wrote:
Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> writes:Customers word it this way:
On 2026-10-06, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson <johann@myrkraverk.invalid> wrote:
On 10/4/2026 5:06 PM, Nomen Nescio wrote:All major operating systems are pieces of shit in one way or
Copilot is a useless piece of shit.
And so is Debian, but we can only deal with one thing at a time. >>>>>>>
another, but some are shittier than others.
I wonder what the definition of "piece of shit" is in the context >>>>>>> of operating systems?
ÿÿ "I'll know it when I see it"
Anything that "gets in a customers road" makes it shitty.
<snip/>
I agree with your observations, but here, my question was a bit rhetorical. I
mean, calling something a "piece of shit" is, from my point of view, a bit,
well, overly condescending.
I was triggered by the mentioning of Debian, of course, which I consider to be
quite nice. I'm using it for more than 25 years now, and I can really >>>>> appreciate all the work people put into it. So, calling it a "piece of shit"
seems to be a rather ignorant remark, so to say.
Cheers,
ÿÿ Bob
There are individual people working on packages.
We're not talking about them, particularly.
Usually, with two levels of curation, a large
quantity of packages can be in pretty good shape.
In the big scheme of things, it is the tree herder who
prepares the distro, that makes or breaks it. That's
where the shit comes from. Shipping something that
hasn't been properly tested, you're going to get
a roasting for that.
If the majority of distros can reach a certain quality
level, you should be able to as well, if you are
calling yourself a Tree Herder.
I downloaded a distro for the first time three weeks
ago. Booted the DVD. The display didn't start.
Fixed that manually and now I'm in GParted, trying
to partition the disk the way they want it (the instructions
are to manually partition it). The mouse stops working!
I can't click Apply!. And GParted is not <tab>/keyboard
compatible, cannot <tab> my way to the Apply button.
Screwed. Wasted one DVD, and hours of time. What do
we call such a thing ? "Shit!" And the sad part, is
available info shows that distro had been shipping things
for *ten years*. What were the other releases like ?
Why would I be even remotely curious ? There were
just two reviews in Distrowatch, rating the distro
as a "9". Close to perfection, in other words.
The reviews must have been via Mom and Dad.
That doesn't happen too often. I have quite a pile
of DVDs and ISOs here. Some of them have been rough,
but with a bit of practice and the right forum threads,
you can find enough recipe info to finish the install.
Like, one of them, the repo pointers were wrong
in the release. But by using a bit of guesswork,
I made up a domain name and it worked! And I had
a repo that worked just fine, likely as it was
intended to work. Oops.
The Debian installer has erased two hard drives here,
when it was not instructed to erase them. Debian is
on my list of "trust but verify". To install Debian
here today, that's on the "back up the disk first
before you proceed" list. See, not a problem, ONCE IT
IS ON THE LIST. The Win2K installer CD, also
wiped a disk drive and it IS ON THE LIST. I recovered
that drive with TestDisk, as only the MBR got hammered.
To achieve that result, you go through a couple steps
in Win2K installer, then Cancel, and your drive has
taken damage at that point. No formatter attempted to run.
Surprisingly, that's the list. Debian and Win2K.
Everyone else entered the room without destroying
anything.
:)
I must say, one of the reasons I like Debian: when I was
"less in the know", their management software (be it dselect,
apt, ..) saved me not once for disaster.
Thing is, yes, there are, well, "things", but that, in this case,
never qualifies for the category "shit". That's what I wanted
to convey.
I'm grateful for the work people have put into it, and keep on
doing.
Regards,
ÿÿ Bob
P.S. Did I mention that I appreciate your sometimes very insightful
ÿÿÿÿÿ and detailed posts? I think not, but here it is: nice posts!
ÿÿÿÿÿ Grazi!
I remember when I "upgraded" my laptop from HDD to SSD.ÿ I unplugged the
old HDD while booting up the Windows 10 installation DVD, and did a
clean install on the fresh SSD -- of course.
Then after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD
in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
Point being, I did not trust the Windows 10 installer to leave the old
disk alone.ÿ By necessity, I had to trust the new Windows 10 install-
ation, and it hasn't trashed the HDD yet.
It always a good idea to disconnect an existing drive and connect the new when clean installing.
ÿ- For most, their laptops have only one connector for a disk (HDD or SSD, typical for laptops capable of upgrading thus the need to trust or not trust the Windows installer to leave the old disk alone does not/would not exist.
Personally, I never did like the Windows installer to set up the partitions on a new disk(SSD or HDD), preferring to use the installer Admin option to access Diskpart and configure the size of each partition(System, MSR, Windows, Windows RE)...and especially configuring the Windows RE partition for 2 or 3 GB to ensure future WinRE updates never have a need to resize/shrink C:\(i.e. Windows partition) to enlarge the WinRE partition size.
So my recommendation, if you have the budget, to always install on a
fresh disk, and not muck about with partitions because you never know
when an installer will trash something.
+1
On Sun, 11/1/2026 6:56 PM, ...w¤?ñ?¤ wrote:
On 11/01/26 3:42 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
I remember when I "upgraded" my laptop from HDD to SSD.ÿ I unplugged the >>> old HDD while booting up the Windows 10 installation DVD, and did a
clean install on the fresh SSD -- of course.
Then after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD
in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
Point being, I did not trust the Windows 10 installer to leave the old
disk alone.ÿ By necessity, I had to trust the new Windows 10 install-
ation, and it hasn't trashed the HDD yet.
It always a good idea to disconnect an existing drive and connect the new when clean installing.
ÿ- For most, their laptops have only one connector for a disk (HDD or SSD, typical for laptops capable of upgrading thus the need to trust or not trust the Windows installer to leave the old disk alone does not/would not exist.
Personally, I never did like the Windows installer to set up the partitions on a new disk(SSD or HDD), preferring to use the installer Admin option to access Diskpart and configure the size of each partition(System, MSR, Windows, Windows RE)...and especially configuring the Windows RE partition for 2 or 3 GB to ensure future WinRE updates never have a need to resize/shrink C:\(i.e. Windows partition) to enlarge the WinRE partition size.
So my recommendation, if you have the budget, to always install on a
fresh disk, and not muck about with partitions because you never know
when an installer will trash something.
+1
I can give an example from yesterday.
Have a blank SSD (just cleaned it) and want to put Ubuntu 2610 on it
[usual thing, need most recent version of something, and that's how I will get it]
Have a Windows NVMe with W11 and W10. UEFI boot.
Normally my rule of thumb, is to remove superfluous drives.
The NVMe is under a new video card. I would have to remove
the video card, to get at the NVMe. I don't want to do this, as
I just got the damn thing in there.
So I take separate backups of the SSD (before cleaning) and the NVMe.
I start to install Ubuntu. I notice that it is not complaining
that no EFI system FAT32 partition has been defined. It turns out, if
I had allowed it to roll forward, it was planning to put GRUB2 onto
the NVMe, whereas my plan was for GRUB2 to be on the SSD. There was
some button in the interface, that recognized the need for the
EFI system partition, and it defined one. Then I could move
forward with the install, in the knowledge that when it installs
GRUB, it is not going to modify the Windows NVMe.
Just about anything could get trashed along the way, which is why
both drives were backed up. But assuming the normal level of linearity,
I didn't have too much to worry about.
Paul
On 11/01/26 7:31 PM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 11/1/2026 6:56 PM, ...w¤?ñ?¤ wrote:
On 11/01/26 3:42 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
I remember when I "upgraded" my laptop from HDD to SSD.ÿ I unplugged the >>>> old HDD while booting up the Windows 10 installation DVD, and did a
clean install on the fresh SSD -- of course.
Then after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD >>>> in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
Point being, I did not trust the Windows 10 installer to leave the old >>>> disk alone.ÿ By necessity, I had to trust the new Windows 10 install-
ation, and it hasn't trashed the HDD yet.
It always a good idea to disconnect an existing drive and connect the new when clean installing.
ÿÿ- For most, their laptops have only one connector for a disk (HDD or SSD, typical for laptops capable of upgrading thus the need to trust or not trust the Windows installer to leave the old disk alone does not/would not exist.
Personally, I never did like the Windows installer to set up the partitions on a new disk(SSD or HDD), preferring to use the installer Admin option to access Diskpart and configure the size of each partition(System, MSR, Windows, Windows RE)...and especially configuring the Windows RE partition for 2 or 3 GB to ensure future WinRE updates never have a need to resize/shrink C:\(i.e. Windows partition) to enlarge the WinRE partition size.
So my recommendation, if you have the budget, to always install on a
fresh disk, and not muck about with partitions because you never know
when an installer will trash something.
+1
I can give an example from yesterday.
ÿÿÿÿ Have a blank SSD (just cleaned it) and want to put Ubuntu 2610 on it
ÿÿÿÿ [usual thing, need most recent version of something, and that's how I will get it]
ÿÿÿÿ Have a Windows NVMe with W11 and W10. UEFI boot.
Normally my rule of thumb, is to remove superfluous drives.
The NVMe is under a new video card. I would have to remove
the video card, to get at the NVMe. I don't want to do this, as
I just got the damn thing in there.
So I take separate backups of the SSD (before cleaning) and the NVMe.
I start to install Ubuntu. I notice that it is not complaining
that no EFI system FAT32 partition has been defined. It turns out, if
I had allowed it to roll forward, it was planning to put GRUB2 onto
the NVMe, whereas my plan was for GRUB2 to be on the SSD. There was
some button in the interface, that recognized the need for the
EFI system partition, and it defined one. Then I could move
forward with the install, in the knowledge that when it installs
GRUB, it is not going to modify the Windows NVMe.
Just about anything could get trashed along the way, which is why
both drives were backed up. But assuming the normal level of linearity,
I didn't have too much to worry about.
ÿÿÿ Paul
That's an good example for your device, but it does not appear to be representative of Johann's input on replacing the HDD with an SSD(in a laptop)
ÿ- i.e. Your NMMe under the new video card is most likely a desktop device.
ÿAs I noted earlier, since Johanns device was a laptop and the HDD was replaced with an SSD, its unclear to what connector the HDD was reconnected.
ÿ<qp> Johann wrote
ÿThen after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
ÿ</qp>
ÿ The logical assumption would be an external caddy or cable(i.e. not the same laptop).
My comment about removing or disconnecting the drive(which I should made more clear) was intended with applicability to his laptop.
Also, diskpart formatting would apply to any type of device installing Windows with a new SSD including devices that have another SSD or HDD that remains connected whether or not those type of devices are a laptop or desktop.
ÿ- my laptop has two disks...a 250 GB SSD M.2 SATA and a 1 TB HD. The SSD, like the HDD is also removable(original was a 128 GB M.2 SSD), though replacing the HDD would require temporarily disconnecting the battery connector. I originally recycled a 250 GB SSD M.2 SATA from an earlier laptop to replace the 128 GB. I replaced that drive after upgrading W10 to W11 with a new 250 GB M.2 for clean installing W11 with its digital license. Since I used Diskpart to select the correct disk and format the SSD partitions, it was not necessary to remove or have concern with the connected HDD(which has all the data/documents folder[docx, xlsx, music, photos, OneDrive sync folder], and also separate folders for drivers, program installers, and setup[files and scripts]. This way the SSD stays reasonably clean with just the four diskparted partitions(System, MSR, Windows, WinRE and obviously installed programs on the Windows partition).
On Mon, 11/2/2026 3:48 PM, ...w¤?ñ?¤ wrote:
On 11/01/26 7:31 PM, Paul wrote:
On Sun, 11/1/2026 6:56 PM, ...w¤?ñ?¤ wrote:
On 11/01/26 3:42 PM, Johann 'Myrkraverk' Oskarsson wrote:
I remember when I "upgraded" my laptop from HDD to SSD.ÿ I unplugged the >>>>> old HDD while booting up the Windows 10 installation DVD, and did a
clean install on the fresh SSD -- of course.
Then after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD >>>>> in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
Point being, I did not trust the Windows 10 installer to leave the old >>>>> disk alone.ÿ By necessity, I had to trust the new Windows 10 install- >>>>> ation, and it hasn't trashed the HDD yet.
It always a good idea to disconnect an existing drive and connect the new when clean installing.
ÿÿ- For most, their laptops have only one connector for a disk (HDD or SSD, typical for laptops capable of upgrading thus the need to trust or not trust the Windows installer to leave the old disk alone does not/would not exist.
Personally, I never did like the Windows installer to set up the partitions on a new disk(SSD or HDD), preferring to use the installer Admin option to access Diskpart and configure the size of each partition(System, MSR, Windows, Windows RE)...and especially configuring the Windows RE partition for 2 or 3 GB to ensure future WinRE updates never have a need to resize/shrink C:\(i.e. Windows partition) to enlarge the WinRE partition size.
So my recommendation, if you have the budget, to always install on a >>>>> fresh disk, and not muck about with partitions because you never know >>>>> when an installer will trash something.
+1
I can give an example from yesterday.
ÿÿÿÿ Have a blank SSD (just cleaned it) and want to put Ubuntu 2610 on it >>> ÿÿÿÿ [usual thing, need most recent version of something, and that's how I will get it]
ÿÿÿÿ Have a Windows NVMe with W11 and W10. UEFI boot.
Normally my rule of thumb, is to remove superfluous drives.
The NVMe is under a new video card. I would have to remove
the video card, to get at the NVMe. I don't want to do this, as
I just got the damn thing in there.
So I take separate backups of the SSD (before cleaning) and the NVMe.
I start to install Ubuntu. I notice that it is not complaining
that no EFI system FAT32 partition has been defined. It turns out, if
I had allowed it to roll forward, it was planning to put GRUB2 onto
the NVMe, whereas my plan was for GRUB2 to be on the SSD. There was
some button in the interface, that recognized the need for the
EFI system partition, and it defined one. Then I could move
forward with the install, in the knowledge that when it installs
GRUB, it is not going to modify the Windows NVMe.
Just about anything could get trashed along the way, which is why
both drives were backed up. But assuming the normal level of linearity,
I didn't have too much to worry about.
ÿÿÿ Paul
That's an good example for your device, but it does not appear to be representative of Johann's input on replacing the HDD with an SSD(in a laptop)
ÿ- i.e. Your NMMe under the new video card is most likely a desktop device. >> ÿAs I noted earlier, since Johanns device was a laptop and the HDD was replaced with an SSD, its unclear to what connector the HDD was reconnected.
ÿ<qp> Johann wrote
ÿThen after finishing the installation process, I re-plugged the old HDD in, to get access to my old files and so forth.
ÿ</qp>
ÿ The logical assumption would be an external caddy or cable(i.e. not the same laptop).
My comment about removing or disconnecting the drive(which I should made more clear) was intended with applicability to his laptop.
Also, diskpart formatting would apply to any type of device installing Windows with a new SSD including devices that have another SSD or HDD that remains connected whether or not those type of devices are a laptop or desktop.
ÿ- my laptop has two disks...a 250 GB SSD M.2 SATA and a 1 TB HD. The SSD, like the HDD is also removable(original was a 128 GB M.2 SSD), though replacing the HDD would require temporarily disconnecting the battery connector. I originally recycled a 250 GB SSD M.2 SATA from an earlier laptop to replace the 128 GB. I replaced that drive after upgrading W10 to W11 with a new 250 GB M.2 for clean installing W11 with its digital license. Since I used Diskpart to select the correct disk and format the SSD partitions, it was not necessary to remove or have concern with the connected HDD(which has all the data/documents folder[docx, xlsx, music, photos, OneDrive sync folder], and also separate folders for drivers, program installers, and setup[files and scripts]. This way the SSD stays reasonably clean with just the four diskparted partitions(System, MSR, Windows, WinRE and obviously installed programs on the Windows partition).
Even when you define an ESP partition on a blank device,
and let an installation go ahead, there is no guarantee
that the installer particularly cares about some things.
On some OSes, it will brazenly grab the boot materials
of any other device connected to the machine, and put
the boot menu items into that (existing) device. Once you
recognize situations where that has happened before, you have
to come up with a plan to stop it.
In my example, an anti-pattern showed up. the installer
demonstrated no interest in creating a "decoy" ESP,
when it had spotted an ESP it could abuse. By clicking
a button that was supposed to recognize the need for
an ESP, that is supposed to be evidence they know
the root of that device is where the user wants the
boot materials. And that's a first time for me seeing
such a thing. Normally, there would be odds of destruction
possible, which is why I have backups to restore any
partition I think has been damaged.
You can always repair the boot, once the main parts of
an install are in place. With a little luck and the right
CD, you can even chainload your way in (it's a small disc
that is used as an aid to booting). Then, if you get in,
you can use on-line type commands to fix the boot.
But I still like having options. And being able to fetch
some small partition to pave over a damaged small partition,
is a nice to have option.
The Macrium boot repair, that will get you in OK, but
it does not make cosmetically perfect results. For a lot of
people, there is a sigh of relief when they can get back
into C: , no matter what else happens.
| Sysop: | Tetrazocine |
|---|---|
| Location: | Melbourne, VIC, Australia |
| Users: | 4 |
| Nodes: | 8 (0 / 8) |
| Uptime: | 25:09:21 |
| Calls: | 222 |
| Files: | 21,513 |
| Messages: | 83,563 |