• Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy

    From Marian@3:633/10 to All on Mon Dec 1 11:50:18 2025
    Subject: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    Discussion:
    How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security.

    For those wishing to know more about this topic, most people have their
    router Wi-Fi AP set to broadcast the SSID, which means it's uploaded to world-wide publicly accessible databases whether they like it or not.
    a. The (unique) GPS location (of the phone uploading it) is uploaded
    b. The signal strength (of the signal to the phone) is uploaded
    c. The (unique) BSSID (MAC address) is uploaded - which is essentially you
    d. The (normally non-unique) SSID is uploaded (with or without _nomap)

    Every mobile device owned by ignorant/rude people is uploading that privacy
    to the world-wide publicly accessible databases (which have been abused).

    That means my mobile devices don't ever upload your privacy.
    But your mobile device almost certainly tries to upload mine.

    What I do to prevent the upload is I set my SSID to not broadcast.
    a. This prevents a passive upload by rude/ignorant people.
    I also opt out by adding _optout_ & _nomap to the SSID.
    b. This (supposedly) removes my privacy information from the servers
    In addition, I set the mobile device to not connect automatically.
    c. This stops the mobile device from shouting out "are you there?"

    In addition, due to the ubiquitous existence of WPA2 SSID-salted rainbow
    hash tables (& reusable butterfly WPA2-handshake hashcat tables), I use a (hopefully) unique SSID (since it's the WPA2 encryption salt) in addition
    to a (hopefully) non-dictionary passphrase (both of which are required to
    stay out of those pre-computed and re-used cryptographic hash tables).
    1. Rainbow tables: Precomputed WPA2 hash databases based on SSID
    2. Butterfly hash tables: Optimization structures used in WPA2 cracking

    Furthermore, iOS mobile devices can be set to randomize the MAC per SSID, while Android mobile devices can be set to randomize the MAC per instance.

    If you own a new'ish router, you can upgrade to WPA3, which replaces WPA2's vulnerable handshake with SAE (so it's resistant to dictionary attacks).

    Of course, you should always disable Wi-Fi Protected Setup (WPS). Duh.
    And, keep your firmware updated (duh), & isolate the guest network (duh). Disable remote administration to your router (duh) & use HTTPS for login.

    You "can" restrict connections by MAC, but if you're randomizing the MAC address, it's going to be impossible (as is static IP addresses set at the router level - they now have to be set at the mobile device level instead).

    Also enable and check the router log (duh) for intrusions, but if you've
    ever done that, you'll know already you're being attacked constantly.

    Disable UPnP (duh), and firewall inbound traffic (duh) and enable DNS encryption (DoH/DoT), which seems easy, but I've found it to be a PITA.
    A. DoH (DNS over HTTPS) wraps DNS queries inside HTTPS traffic
    B. DoT (DNS over TLS) sends DNS queries over a TLS-encrypted channel

    You enable iOS 14 & up DoH using Settings > Wi-Fi > DNS & you enable
    Android 9+ DoT with Settings > Network & Internet > Advanced > Private DNS.

    You enable DoH on Windows in Settings > Network & Internet > Change adapter options > DNS settings where Windows 11 is still DoH but the GUI is better.

    On Android devices, you can add a system-wide firewall such as NetGuard.
    It can block Wi-Fi/CellularData access per app. Not available on iOS.

    I don't have much experience with RethinkDNS, but it's a FOSS Android app
    that combines encrypted DNS (DoH/DoT/DNSCrypt) with a system-wide firewall.
    i. RethinkDNS = firewall + encrypted DNS (DoH/DoT/DNSCrypt) + blocklists
    ii. NetGuard = firewall + per-app blocking + ad/tracker blocklists

    You'll never have any privacy/security on iOS, which sucks at both (and
    anyone thinking it doesn't suck, clearly doesn't know anything about iOS).

    While we're at it, it's probably a good idea to put smart TVs, cameras, and IoT gadgets on a separate VLAN or guest SSID, and it goes without saying further that you should change the rude/ignorant default iOS/Android setup.

    If your neighbor's Wi-Fi is open, Windows can BLOCK accidental connections:
    @echo off
    netsh wlan show filters
    echo Blocking unwanted Wi-Fi networks...
    REM Replace these with the SSIDs you want to hide
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID1" networktype=infrastructure
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID2" networktype=infrastructure
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID3" networktype=infrastructure
    echo Done! The specified SSIDs are now blocked.
    netsh wlan show filters
    pause

    What did I miss?
    --
    I invest energy in responding to Usenet posts because I care about people getting full & complete information so we move tribal knowledge forward.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Your Name@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 10:46:53 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-01 18:50:18 +0000, Marian said:

    Discussion:
    How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security.

    <snip the usual load of utter bollocks>

    The moron troll has changed name yet again. :-\




    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 13:01:00 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-01 19:50, Marian wrote:
    Discussion:
    How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security.

    For those wishing to know more about this topic, most people have their router Wi-Fi AP set to broadcast the SSID, which means it's uploaded to world-wide publicly accessible databases whether they like it or not.
    a. The (unique) GPS location (of the phone uploading it) is uploaded

    Not a problem.

    b. The signal strength (of the signal to the phone) is uploaded

    Not a problem.

    c. The (unique) BSSID (MAC address) is uploaded - which is essentially you

    Not a problem.

    d. The (normally non-unique) SSID is uploaded (with or without _nomap)

    Not a problem.

    Next.

    ...


    Of course, you should always disable Wi-Fi Protected Setup (WPS). Duh.

    Okay. Basically the same as not using it.

    And, keep your firmware updated (duh),

    My ISP does it automatically if there is a new firmware, which there is not.

    & isolate the guest network (duh).

    Not all routers can, or do it partially.

    Disable remote administration to your router (duh) & use HTTPS for login.

    That removes the warranty. Seriously. My router is remotely managed by
    my ISP. Not via plain ssh login, they have their own dedicated channel.



    You "can" restrict connections by MAC, but if you're randomizing the MAC address, it's going to be impossible (as is static IP addresses set at the router level - they now have to be set at the mobile device level instead).

    Also enable and check the router log (duh) for intrusions, but if you've
    ever done that, you'll know already you're being attacked constantly.

    The very verbose log in my router does not appear to include external intrusions, or hits on the firewall.



    Disable UPnP (duh), and firewall inbound traffic (duh) and enable DNS encryption (DoH/DoT), which seems easy, but I've found it to be a PITA.
    A. DoH (DNS over HTTPS) wraps DNS queries inside HTTPS traffic
    B. DoT (DNS over TLS) sends DNS queries over a TLS-encrypted channel


    Pse.


    You enable iOS 14 & up DoH using Settings > Wi-Fi > DNS & you enable
    Android 9+ DoT with Settings > Network & Internet > Advanced > Private DNS.

    You enable DoH on Windows in Settings > Network & Internet > Change adapter options > DNS settings where Windows 11 is still DoH but the GUI is better.

    On Android devices, you can add a system-wide firewall such as NetGuard.
    It can block Wi-Fi/CellularData access per app. Not available on iOS.

    I don't have much experience with RethinkDNS, but it's a FOSS Android app that combines encrypted DNS (DoH/DoT/DNSCrypt) with a system-wide firewall.
    i. RethinkDNS = firewall + encrypted DNS (DoH/DoT/DNSCrypt) + blocklists
    ii. NetGuard = firewall + per-app blocking + ad/tracker blocklists

    You'll never have any privacy/security on iOS, which sucks at both (and anyone thinking it doesn't suck, clearly doesn't know anything about iOS).

    While we're at it, it's probably a good idea to put smart TVs, cameras, and IoT gadgets on a separate VLAN or guest SSID, and it goes without saying further that you should change the rude/ignorant default iOS/Android setup.

    Not viable.


    If your neighbor's Wi-Fi is open, Windows can BLOCK accidental connections:
    @echo off
    netsh wlan show filters
    echo Blocking unwanted Wi-Fi networks...
    REM Replace these with the SSIDs you want to hide
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID1" networktype=infrastructure
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID2" networktype=infrastructure
    netsh wlan add filter permission=block ssid="SSID3" networktype=infrastructure
    echo Done! The specified SSIDs are now blocked.
    netsh wlan show filters
    pause

    What did I miss?


    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 13:12:06 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
    Discussion:
    How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security.

    Correction: "privacy/security" translates to "self-aggrandising ultra-paranoids".


    For those wishing to know more about this topic, most people have their router Wi-Fi AP set to broadcast the SSID, which means it's uploaded to world-wide publicly accessible databases whether they like it or not.
    a. The (unique) GPS location (of the phone uploading it) is uploaded
    b. The signal strength (of the signal to the phone) is uploaded
    c. The (unique) BSSID (MAC address) is uploaded - which is essentially you

    A router is not a person. At worst it represents a household in the same
    way a postal address does.

    d. The (normally non-unique) SSID is uploaded (with or without _nomap)

    Every mobile device owned by ignorant/rude people is uploading that privacy to the world-wide publicly accessible databases (which have been abused).

    No they haven't. A theoretical observation has been made. There's no
    evidence of "abuse".

    While you're at it, the equally rude satellites, google cars, the post
    office and census collectors are also sharing extremely private information regarding everyone's houses, where they are and what they look like.

    I STRONGLY recommend first wrapping your house in tinfoil (hopefully that
    will smother your *outgoing* connections), then radar opaque paint and, finally, camouflage netting.

    For extra privacy go live in the woods.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 19:50:00 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
    Chris wrote:


    For those wishing to know more about this topic, most people have their >>> router Wi-Fi AP set to broadcast the SSID, which means it's uploaded to >>> world-wide publicly accessible databases whether they like it or not.
    a. The (unique) GPS location (of the phone uploading it) is uploaded
    b. The signal strength (of the signal to the phone) is uploaded
    c. The (unique) BSSID (MAC address) is uploaded - which is essentially you >>
    A router is not a person. At worst it represents a household in the same
    way a postal address does.

    Hi Chris,

    If you move from one home to another, and if you take your router with you, then the "bad guy" can trace your movements exactly as to time & location.

    They know your exact location & exactly when you changed locations.

    Great. Saves sending all those "we have moved" messages.

    d. The (normally non-unique) SSID is uploaded (with or without _nomap)

    Every mobile device owned by ignorant/rude people is uploading that privacy
    to the world-wide publicly accessible databases (which have been abused). >>
    No they haven't. A theoretical observation has been made. There's no
    evidence of "abuse".

    I know what you're talking about,

    No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
    you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.

    but most people reading this won't know
    that the Apple system (versus the Google system) is atrociously designed.

    You don't "know" it either. All you have is FUD.

    The way Apple does it is Apple allows hundreds upon hundreds of access
    point location information to be downloaded in a single instance by anyone
    on the planet, while Google's system is far more constrained in terms of abuse potential.

    You & I can delve deeper (much deeper) than that astute summary, but that quick overview of the huge differences between the highly insecure Apple system and the lousy Google system (more secure, but it still sucks in
    terms of privacy) should suffice for most people here unless they ask for further details.

    They are no different. They will give anyone with access to the API
    location information based on their wifi AP databases.

    While you're at it, the equally rude satellites, google cars, the post
    office and census collectors are also sharing extremely private information >> regarding everyone's houses, where they are and what they look like.

    What you're saying I've heard a lot from people

    You've heard it a lot because you're a crackpot.

    Privacy is like personal hygiene. You never stop washing your hands.

    Soap is sufficient for 99% of people. You're using bleach driven by fear.

    I STRONGLY recommend first wrapping your house in tinfoil (hopefully that
    will smother your *outgoing* connections), then radar opaque paint and,
    finally, camouflage netting.

    For extra privacy go live in the woods.

    These are the exact words of sklavin, Chris.

    Many people in history have decided to be a slave; but I'm not one of them. And more to the point, I do not advocate that people become slaves.

    You're a slave to your dogmatic obsession.

    You advocate slavery. I advocate freedom.

    Hardly. You have less freedom then I do.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 20:35:54 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025/12/2 16:26:18, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Disable remote administration to your router (duh) & use HTTPS for lo
    gin.

    That removes the warranty. Seriously. My router is remotely managed by

    my ISP. Not via plain ssh login, they have their own dedicated channel
    .

    Hi Carlos,

    Thanks for adding the missing information that the router may be manage
    d by
    the ISP, which, of course, somewhat changes what you can and cannot do
    to
    effect better privacy/security.

    I'm actually surprised, Carlos, that the ISP manages "the router", wher
    e I
    would NOT be surprised if the ISP manages "the modem" (even as I'm well

    aware that router:modem combinations exist (which may be what you have)
    .

    In my case, I don't have a modem since I get my Internet from a dozen m
    iles
    away over the air via WISP, but my "rooftop transceiver" is managed by
    the
    WISP (although he gives me his password so that I can make changes).

    Most people in the USA don't have a transceiver like I do; they have a
    modem, and some people have a modem which is combined into a router.

    I am unfamiliar with that setup personally, since I've never owned a mo
    dem,
    but I've bought them for my kids when they moved into apartments, so I'
    m
    familiar with the concept that you seem to be speaking about.

    Thanks for adding the extra value so that everyone on the team benefits
    .

    I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, a lot of users have _one_
    whitish box, which connects to the 'phone line, and contains the MoDem,
    router, hub, wifi, ... you name it, it's in that box. Common parlance - including from the ISPs who usually supply the box - is to (mis)name
    that box the "router".

    They usually (since the ISP supplies them) have a version of the
    manufacturer's software, tweaked to suit the ISP. I'm not _aware_ of any
    that are remote-flashed by the ISPs, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    I don't _think_ most ISP contracts say you _have_ to use their "router",
    though there may be some that do; however, the majority of users _do_,
    since it's generally supplied "free" by the ISP, and also if anything
    goes wrong - or is _suspected_ of going wrong - the ISP's support desk
    (which aren't great at the best of times) are likely to tell you you're
    on your own if you're not using their "router".

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Paxman, the man who has never used one sneer when three would do
    - Elizabeth Day, RT 2015/5/2-8

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 22:50:03 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-02 17:26, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Disable remote administration to your router (duh) & use HTTPS for login. >>
    That removes the warranty. Seriously. My router is remotely managed by
    my ISP. Not via plain ssh login, they have their own dedicated channel.

    Hi Carlos,

    Thanks for adding the missing information that the router may be managed by the ISP, which, of course, somewhat changes what you can and cannot do to effect better privacy/security.

    I'm actually surprised, Carlos, that the ISP manages "the router", where I would NOT be surprised if the ISP manages "the modem" (even as I'm well
    aware that router:modem combinations exist (which may be what you have).

    It has a direct fibre port, integrating what previously was a separate
    gadget called ONT (Optical network terminal). That may qualify as a modem.

    They do some maintenance. We can call the technical service when we have
    a problem, and they can login remotely to assist in our problem. Saves
    them a trip. I understand they have some kind of management platform,
    where they enter client data and get connected to our router. That
    platform is the same for the dozens of router models they install.

    I assume they apply updates, but I have no proof of this.

    I can change the login password and do my own management (I do), but
    they keep another port for that remote management they do. That's the
    one that would break the support contract.


    In my case, I don't have a modem since I get my Internet from a dozen miles away over the air via WISP, but my "rooftop transceiver" is managed by the WISP (although he gives me his password so that I can make changes).

    Most people in the USA don't have a transceiver like I do; they have a
    modem, and some people have a modem which is combined into a router.

    I am unfamiliar with that setup personally, since I've never owned a modem, but I've bought them for my kids when they moved into apartments, so I'm familiar with the concept that you seem to be speaking about.

    Thanks for adding the extra value so that everyone on the team benefits.


    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 22:57:01 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-02 21:35, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2025/12/2 16:26:18, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:
    Disable remote administration to your router (duh) & use HTTPS for login. >>>
    That removes the warranty. Seriously. My router is remotely managed by
    my ISP. Not via plain ssh login, they have their own dedicated channel.

    Hi Carlos,

    Thanks for adding the missing information that the router may be managed by >> the ISP, which, of course, somewhat changes what you can and cannot do to
    effect better privacy/security.

    I'm actually surprised, Carlos, that the ISP manages "the router", where I >> would NOT be surprised if the ISP manages "the modem" (even as I'm well
    aware that router:modem combinations exist (which may be what you have).

    In my case, I don't have a modem since I get my Internet from a dozen miles >> away over the air via WISP, but my "rooftop transceiver" is managed by the >> WISP (although he gives me his password so that I can make changes).

    Most people in the USA don't have a transceiver like I do; they have a
    modem, and some people have a modem which is combined into a router.

    I am unfamiliar with that setup personally, since I've never owned a modem, >> but I've bought them for my kids when they moved into apartments, so I'm
    familiar with the concept that you seem to be speaking about.

    Thanks for adding the extra value so that everyone on the team benefits.

    I don't know about the USA, but in the UK, a lot of users have _one_
    whitish box, which connects to the 'phone line, and contains the MoDem, router, hub, wifi, ... you name it, it's in that box. Common parlance - including from the ISPs who usually supply the box - is to (mis)name
    that box the "router".

    Absolutely.

    It also connects to the TV decoder. The configuration of the router is
    complex and not documented (!). It has settings to handle TV and phone service. When I call for service I know they get in during the call and
    check or do things


    They usually (since the ISP supplies them) have a version of the manufacturer's software, tweaked to suit the ISP. I'm not _aware_ of any
    that are remote-flashed by the ISPs, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    I highly suspect mine do, but not 100% certain.



    I don't _think_ most ISP contracts say you _have_ to use their "router", though there may be some that do; however, the majority of users _do_,
    since it's generally supplied "free" by the ISP, and also if anything
    goes wrong - or is _suspected_ of going wrong - the ISP's support desk
    (which aren't great at the best of times) are likely to tell you you're
    on your own if you're not using their "router".

    Oh, absolutely.


    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 14:47:01 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-02 08:40, Marian wrote:
    Chris wrote:


    For those wishing to know more about this topic, most people have their
    router Wi-Fi AP set to broadcast the SSID, which means it's uploaded to
    world-wide publicly accessible databases whether they like it or not.
    a. The (unique) GPS location (of the phone uploading it) is uploaded
    b. The signal strength (of the signal to the phone) is uploaded
    c. The (unique) BSSID (MAC address) is uploaded - which is essentially you

    A router is not a person. At worst it represents a household in the same
    way a postal address does.

    Hi Chris,

    If you move from one home to another, and if you take your router with you, then the "bad guy" can trace your movements exactly as to time & location.

    Except no one ever does that.

    The internet facing hardware is (almost) always, owned by the ISP you use.


    They know your exact location & exactly when you changed locations.

    d. The (normally non-unique) SSID is uploaded (with or without _nomap) >>>
    Every mobile device owned by ignorant/rude people is uploading that privacy >>> to the world-wide publicly accessible databases (which have been abused). >>
    No they haven't. A theoretical observation has been made. There's no
    evidence of "abuse".

    I know what you're talking about, but most people reading this won't know that the Apple system (versus the Google system) is atrociously designed.

    The way Apple does it is Apple allows hundreds upon hundreds of access
    point location information to be downloaded in a single instance by anyone
    on the planet, while Google's system is far more constrained in terms of abuse potential.

    Cite, please!

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Tue Dec 2 18:06:56 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Tue, 12/2/2025 3:35 PM, J. P. Gilliver wrote:


    They usually (since the ISP supplies them) have a version of the manufacturer's software, tweaked to suit the ISP. I'm not _aware_ of any
    that are remote-flashed by the ISPs, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    Some networking devices, they have "auto-flash capability".
    The locked-down config you cannot see, has two URLs.

    https://... NAND Flash image

    https://... Configuration file

    and this is supposed to allow "secure push" from the ISP.
    I've even had one unlocked box I bought, get flashed by
    the ISP (by some trickery, as the two URLs weren't loaded
    as I later found them). They can have the capability to
    take over a box (maybe it's just one of those 12345
    type passwords :-) ).

    And the Alcatel ADSL1 modem-only box, had remote flash too, because
    a university analysis of the box found there were exploitable
    features, and the ADSL modem would come to your home, and
    they would flash them up once the box was online. That's how
    some of the known exploits would be removed. They would do that,
    rather than have a warehouse full of modems and some poor individual
    go around, open the boxes, and flash them.

    ISP grade boxes, can have multi-level passwords, and if you use
    the web interface on the ISP-provided box, all you get is the
    slick background image and no controls at all to use. When you
    buy the same box unlocked, the boxes still are not as feature
    complete as a DLink would be. For example, the unlocked box
    I've got, to program the damn Firewall, is a hundred lines of
    crap in a text file (no GUI!). It's four lines of text per rule.

    Paul



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 13:47:09 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 00:39, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My main argument, which all my kids learned in spades, was that paying $150 up front once, immediately reduced the long-term costs by thousands of dollars since it instantly saved the $50 (probably now $75 or more) "installation fee" that cable companies charged, and, of course, it eliminates the $10/month (now likely $20/month) plus taxes to rent it.
    <https://www.costco.com/routers-networking.html>

    It is not a rental here. We can buy a router, the monthly fee doesn't
    change a cent. The advantage is (probably) a more feature rich router
    and more control. The disadvantage is that you have to work out the configuration, which is a pain (AFAIK they don't publish it), and that
    if something breaks you have no support. They'll help, sure, depending
    on who you manage to talk with, but no support.

    When I was on ADSL I had their router, but I bought my own. The
    configuration was simpler back then, but the router had a wizard: I just
    told it what Telco it was, and it configured itself. I have not seen
    this feature announced with fibre.

    ...

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 14:27:47 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025/12/3 12:47:9, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-12-03 00:39, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My main argument, which all my kids learned in spades, was that paying $150 >> up front once, immediately reduced the long-term costs by thousands of
    dollars since it instantly saved the $50 (probably now $75 or more)
    "installation fee" that cable companies charged, and, of course, it
    eliminates the $10/month (now likely $20/month) plus taxes to rent it.
    <https://www.costco.com/routers-networking.html>

    It is not a rental here. We can buy a router, the monthly fee doesn't
    change a cent. The advantage is (probably) a more feature rich router
    and more control. The disadvantage is that you have to work out the configuration, which is a pain (AFAIK they don't publish it), and that
    if something breaks you have no support. They'll help, sure, depending
    on who you manage to talk with, but no support.

    When I was on ADSL I had their router, but I bought my own. The configuration was simpler back then, but the router had a wizard: I just told it what Telco it was, and it configured itself. I have not seen
    this feature announced with fibre.

    ...

    As I've said before, here in UK most users who are connected to a copper
    'phone line have one box, containing MoDem, router, hub, and wifi base,
    which box is generally referred to as a "router"; AIUI those with an
    actual fibre connection to the home still have a similar-_looking_ box,
    still referred to as a "router", but one additional box that connects to
    the fibre, and to which the "router" connects, usually by an ethernet cable.

    The "router" is in most cases provided "free" by the ISP (or, at least,
    any monthly rental is included in the about 25 pounds a month you pay
    for service access - which is _not_ reduced if you buy your own
    "router"). There's no "installation charge" for the router as such; if
    you get broadband where there was none before, there is usually a
    startup charge, but that's regardless of whether you use the provided
    router or not - it's to cover equipment setup at the exchange AIUI.

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    We must, of course, ensure that we display no bias. The bias I worry
    about most is the bias against understanding.
    - Nick Robinson, RT 2017/4/8-14

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 14:42:41 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
    On 2025-12-03 00:39, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My main argument, which all my kids learned in spades, was that paying $150 >> up front once, immediately reduced the long-term costs by thousands of
    dollars since it instantly saved the $50 (probably now $75 or more)
    "installation fee" that cable companies charged, and, of course, it
    eliminates the $10/month (now likely $20/month) plus taxes to rent it.
    <https://www.costco.com/routers-networking.html>

    It is not a rental here.

    Nor in the UK. You may get charged a smallish "setup" fee on some (short) contracts if you take their supplied router. Otherwise the monthly fee is simply for internet access.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 20:25:49 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 19:53, Marian wrote:
    I can't imagine any ISP/WISP willing to do all that private LAN setup.

    No, they do the generic setup, and if something breaks (tv not working,
    phone not working) they can get in and have a look, and perhaps, change
    what is wrong. Hopefully writing down in a log.


    Initially the client had access to a remote web page to setup his own
    router. Advanced users asked to learn the password, and access the
    router local web page for admin. I did that long ago.

    Instead, the current router has a very simple admin page with password (printed in a label underneath the router) and help pages, and an
    advanced setup that asks "are you sure"? but has the same password and
    no help pages. And a complex setup.


    Wifi (ssid/pass), typeof security, and channel
    WiFi+
    WiFi for guests (ssid/pass, type of security

    Ports to open to what local machine

    LAN map
    LAN config (gateway, mask, dhcp on/off, range, dns1 dns2)

    Config is multiple (with NAT) or single post (transparent router)

    IPv6 (dhcp mode, ports, filter)

    router password

    Firmware updates

    Other (write/read profile, factory reset, wifi factory reset, firewall disable, universal UPnP enable/disable.

    Help

    Advnced.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 20:31:04 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 17:19, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:
    It is not a rental here. We can buy a router, the monthly fee doesn't
    change a cent.

    Hi Carlos,

    I need to be clear. I never said what you apparently thought I said.
    It's not the "router", per se, that people rent out here.
    It's the modem.


    Where I say router I mean a single box that is ONT/modem/router/switch.

    And it handles Internet, Landline, TV "signal", using several VLANs. Not documented.

    ...

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 20:16:49 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025/12/3 18:53:32, Marian wrote:

    []

    Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so every property has to be a mini
    mum
    of 40 acres, where if you don't have a bunch of radios scattered about,
    you

    []

    So hugely different outlooks! I've never heard (though I'm sure you're
    right) of a _minimum_ property size before.

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    they did so much with so little, now they do so little with so much.
    - @richardgregory3684, 2023 (on the Doctor Who Theme)

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 13:18:12 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 12:47, Andy Burns wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    Marian wrote:

    Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so every property has to be a
    minimum
    of 40 acres

    So hugely different outlooks! I've never heard (though I'm sure you're
    right) of a _minimum_ property size before.
    I had heard of the phrase <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back_forty>


    While that explains the origin of the "forty"...

    ...I have huge doubts about Arlen stating the whole truth about anything.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 22:48:52 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 15:27, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2025/12/3 12:47:9, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-12-03 00:39, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My main argument, which all my kids learned in spades, was that paying $150 >>> up front once, immediately reduced the long-term costs by thousands of
    dollars since it instantly saved the $50 (probably now $75 or more)
    "installation fee" that cable companies charged, and, of course, it
    eliminates the $10/month (now likely $20/month) plus taxes to rent it.
    <https://www.costco.com/routers-networking.html>

    It is not a rental here. We can buy a router, the monthly fee doesn't
    change a cent. The advantage is (probably) a more feature rich router
    and more control. The disadvantage is that you have to work out the
    configuration, which is a pain (AFAIK they don't publish it), and that
    if something breaks you have no support. They'll help, sure, depending
    on who you manage to talk with, but no support.

    When I was on ADSL I had their router, but I bought my own. The
    configuration was simpler back then, but the router had a wizard: I just
    told it what Telco it was, and it configured itself. I have not seen
    this feature announced with fibre.

    ...

    As I've said before, here in UK most users who are connected to a copper 'phone line have one box, containing MoDem, router, hub, and wifi base,
    which box is generally referred to as a "router"; AIUI those with an
    actual fibre connection to the home still have a similar-_looking_ box,
    still referred to as a "router", but one additional box that connects to
    the fibre, and to which the "router" connects, usually by an ethernet cable.

    The "router" is in most cases provided "free" by the ISP (or, at least,
    any monthly rental is included in the about 25 pounds a month you pay
    for service access - which is _not_ reduced if you buy your own
    "router"). There's no "installation charge" for the router as such; if
    you get broadband where there was none before, there is usually a
    startup charge, but that's regardless of whether you use the provided
    router or not - it's to cover equipment setup at the exchange AIUI.

    Yes, same here.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Your Name@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 12:39:45 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 21:48:52 +0000, Carlos E.R. said:
    On 2025-12-03 15:27, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
    On 2025/12/3 12:47:9, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-12-03 00:39, Marian wrote:
    Carlos E.R. wrote:

    ...

    My main argument, which all my kids learned in spades, was that paying $150
    up front once, immediately reduced the long-term costs by thousands of >>>> dollars since it instantly saved the $50 (probably now $75 or more)
    "installation fee" that cable companies charged, and, of course, it
    eliminates the $10/month (now likely $20/month) plus taxes to rent it. >>>> <https://www.costco.com/routers-networking.html>

    It is not a rental here. We can buy a router, the monthly fee doesn't
    change a cent. The advantage is (probably) a more feature rich router
    and more control. The disadvantage is that you have to work out the
    configuration, which is a pain (AFAIK they don't publish it), and that
    if something breaks you have no support. They'll help, sure, depending
    on who you manage to talk with, but no support.

    When I was on ADSL I had their router, but I bought my own. The
    configuration was simpler back then, but the router had a wizard: I just >>> told it what Telco it was, and it configured itself. I have not seen
    this feature announced with fibre.

    ...

    As I've said before, here in UK most users who are connected to a copper
    'phone line have one box, containing MoDem, router, hub, and wifi base,
    which box is generally referred to as a "router"; AIUI those with an
    actual fibre connection to the home still have a similar-_looking_ box,
    still referred to as a "router", but one additional box that connects to
    the fibre, and to which the "router" connects, usually by an ethernet cable. >>
    The "router" is in most cases provided "free" by the ISP (or, at least,
    any monthly rental is included in the about 25 pounds a month you pay
    for service access - which is _not_ reduced if you buy your own
    "router"). There's no "installation charge" for the router as such; if
    you get broadband where there was none before, there is usually a
    startup charge, but that's regardless of whether you use the provided
    router or not - it's to cover equipment setup at the exchange AIUI.

    Yes, same here.

    Pretty much the same in New Zealand for most providers. The term
    contract plans include a "free" modem or on the open term plans can
    have the ISP's modem added at additional cost or use your own.

    Cooper lines are being phased out here by 2030 and is already done in
    many of the main population areas. That means people have to use fibre, cellular (including "home wireless"), or one of the expensive satellite services.



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Paul@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 20:08:36 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Wed, 12/3/2025 4:18 PM, Alan wrote:
    On 2025-12-03 12:47, Andy Burns wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    Marian wrote:

    Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so every property has to be a minimum >>>> of 40 acres

    So hugely different outlooks! I've never heard (though I'm sure you're
    right) of a _minimum_ property size before.
    I had heard of the phrase <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back_forty>


    While that explains the origin of the "forty"...

    ...I have huge doubts about Arlen stating the whole truth about anything.

    That makes sense for agricultural land. 40 is a quarter of a 160 property.
    And hobby farms here are 40. The zoning likely prevents chopping a title
    into smaller chunks. You can't turn Ag land into subdivisions, without
    the right zoning. And a higher level of government draws lines around productive farmland and prevents that sort of thing. If they didn't do
    that, all the farms would be sad looking subdivisions.

    For hobby farming, you have to be careful to not lose your tax status.
    The easiest way to "meet the farming requirement", is to rent out 30 acres
    for hay production, a neighbour comes in and harvests hay several times
    per year. And that income is then taxed (somehow) at a farm rate. If
    you just sit on the land, some tax becomes hella expensive. That's
    what I've overheard from people doing this. There is an incentive to
    "make it look like it's a farm". That's how the scheme works here.

    A few people, will run their property like an actual farm.

    Even inheritance of the property is a huge liability.

    Paul

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Wed Dec 3 19:41:50 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 17:44, Marian wrote:
    Paul wrote:
    ...I have huge doubts about Arlen stating the whole truth about anything. >>
    That makes sense for agricultural land. 40 is a quarter of a 160 property. >> And hobby farms here are 40. The zoning likely prevents chopping a title
    into smaller chunks. You can't turn Ag land into subdivisions, without
    the right zoning. And a higher level of government draws lines around
    productive farmland and prevents that sort of thing. If they didn't do
    that, all the farms would be sad looking subdivisions.

    For hobby farming, you have to be careful to not lose your tax status.
    The easiest way to "meet the farming requirement", is to rent out 30 acres >> for hay production, a neighbour comes in and harvests hay several times
    per year. And that income is then taxed (somehow) at a farm rate. If
    you just sit on the land, some tax becomes hella expensive. That's
    what I've overheard from people doing this. There is an incentive to
    "make it look like it's a farm". That's how the scheme works here.

    A few people, will run their property like an actual farm.

    Even inheritance of the property is a huge liability.

    Paul


    Hi Paul,

    802.11 reality:

    Nobody reads anything Alan Baker ever says because his IQ is actually at
    the retard level (roughly no better than about 40 IQ).

    He denies everything he can't comprehend - which - is everything.

    One look at the Hillside (HS) zoning in unincorporated Santa Clara County would show the idiot that 40-acre zoning is the norm for Hillsides.
    <https://plandev.santaclaracounty.gov/codes-and-policies/zoning-ordinance>
    HS (Hillside District) = 40-acre minimum parcel size
    AR (Agricultural Ranchlands District) -> 40-acre minimum parcel size

    Did you catch the subtle shift there?

    From, "Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so EVERY property has to be
    a minimum of 40 acres"

    To, "40-acre zoning is the norm for Hillsides"

    "the norm" implies that there are exceptions, where "every property" explicitly means there aren't.

    From looking at the "Zoning Atlas" linked at the "Zoning Ordinance"
    page Arlen linked above, we can see that he omits that "HS" and "AR" are
    just two (2) zoning districts...

    ...out of a total 33 different districts.

    And if you look at that map...

    <https://stgenpln.blob.core.windows.net/document/zoning_atlas.pdf>

    ...you'll see that the vast majority of the area of Santa Clara County
    is not zoned HS, or AR.

    So, just as I suspect, Arlen wasn't telling the whole story.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tyrone@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 03:48:14 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Dec 3, 2025 at 10:41:50?PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

    On 2025-12-03 17:44, Marian wrote:
    Paul wrote:
    ...I have huge doubts about Arlen stating the whole truth about anything. >>>
    That makes sense for agricultural land. 40 is a quarter of a 160 property. >>> And hobby farms here are 40. The zoning likely prevents chopping a title >>> into smaller chunks. You can't turn Ag land into subdivisions, without
    the right zoning. And a higher level of government draws lines around
    productive farmland and prevents that sort of thing. If they didn't do
    that, all the farms would be sad looking subdivisions.

    For hobby farming, you have to be careful to not lose your tax status.
    The easiest way to "meet the farming requirement", is to rent out 30 acres >>> for hay production, a neighbour comes in and harvests hay several times
    per year. And that income is then taxed (somehow) at a farm rate. If
    you just sit on the land, some tax becomes hella expensive. That's
    what I've overheard from people doing this. There is an incentive to
    "make it look like it's a farm". That's how the scheme works here.

    A few people, will run their property like an actual farm.

    Even inheritance of the property is a huge liability.

    Paul


    Hi Paul,

    802.11 reality:

    Nobody reads anything Alan Baker ever says because his IQ is actually at
    the retard level (roughly no better than about 40 IQ).

    He denies everything he can't comprehend - which - is everything.

    One look at the Hillside (HS) zoning in unincorporated Santa Clara County
    would show the idiot that 40-acre zoning is the norm for Hillsides.
    <https://plandev.santaclaracounty.gov/codes-and-policies/zoning-ordinance> >> HS (Hillside District) = 40-acre minimum parcel size
    AR (Agricultural Ranchlands District) -> 40-acre minimum parcel size

    Did you catch the subtle shift there?

    From, "Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so EVERY property has to be
    a minimum of 40 acres"

    To, "40-acre zoning is the norm for Hillsides"

    "the norm" implies that there are exceptions, where "every property" explicitly means there aren't.

    From looking at the "Zoning Atlas" linked at the "Zoning Ordinance"
    page Arlen linked above, we can see that he omits that "HS" and "AR" are
    just two (2) zoning districts...

    ...out of a total 33 different districts.

    And if you look at that map...

    <https://stgenpln.blob.core.windows.net/document/zoning_atlas.pdf>

    ...you'll see that the vast majority of the area of Santa Clara County
    is not zoned HS, or AR.

    So, just as I suspect, Arlen wasn't telling the whole story.

    Wait. So Arlen was lying? Again?

    AND the link he provides does not support his claim?

    SHOCKING.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From J. P. Gilliver@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 11:20:38 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025/12/4 0:43:14, Marian wrote:

    []

    What I love about Usenet is we all work together as a team, where each individual brings a completely different perspective to each discussion.

    This "minimum size" thing is certainly a different perspective! I don't
    _think_ anywhere in the UK has a minimum property size rule. (I vaguely remember - some decades ago - some people wanting to hinder development
    in some area sold off a field in square-yard patches, ideally to people
    abroad, thus making it difficult for any potential developer to even
    _contact_ all the owners, and something might have been done to prevent
    _that_, but we're talking many orders of magnitude different here!)

    []

    The point is that we have such large parcels that we use Wi-Fi to reach hundreds of feet, which is easy for us since our radios go for miles.

    Whereas here the matter is more likely _preventing_ access by others,
    either accidentally or deliberately!

    In the UK, we limit building on agricultural land by what is generally
    referred to as planning permission, planning regulations, etc.; to a
    first approximation you need planning permission for any building work, anywhere (and in extremis if you build without it, you can be forced to
    take it down again, and probably fined too). There are exceptions and variations: you are allowed a certain amount of extension to existing buildings, and farmers need _less_ bureaucracy to erect agricultural
    buildings (e. g. barns) than dwelling-houses. In certain areas even the
    _type_ (style) of things is controlled, to preserve the character of the
    area; this may (and is!) sometimes seen as draconian, but the converse
    argument is that it is the character of the area that attracted you to
    it in the first place, and if you wanted to build a lot of concrete or
    tin boxes, you should have bought land somewhere else. But I'm getting
    off topic even from our off topic: basically, agricultural land is
    protected from being built on, basically on the basis that we need to
    preserve what ag. land we've got, at least where it's _good_ ag. land.
    (Also AONBs - areas of outstanding natural beauty - and national parks -
    even if not actually _good_ ag. land.)

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()ALIS-Ch++(p)Ar++T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Cricket was the most English invention imaginable. As if a prep school
    teacher had tried to demonstrate eternity.
    - Douglas Adams arr. James Goss, 'Doctor Who and the Krikkitmen', 2018

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 11:16:14 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-04 08:08, Marian wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    In certain areas even the
    _type_ (style) of things is controlled, to preserve the character of the
    area; this may (and is!) sometimes seen as draconian, but the converse
    argument is that it is the character of the area that attracted you to
    it in the first place, and if you wanted to build a lot of concrete or
    tin boxes, you should have bought land somewhere else.

    That reminds me. We have "albido" codes! Yup. Albido. If a house is on the mountain, it can't be "too visible" from the valley. The albido is a paint requirement that every home must meet so that it doesn't reflect too much.

    The word is "albEdo" with an "e":

    Another example of your supposed education at work...


    But I'm getting
    off topic even from our off topic: basically, agricultural land is
    protected from being built on, basically on the basis that we need to
    preserve what ag. land we've got, at least where it's _good_ ag. land.
    (Also AONBs - areas of outstanding natural beauty - and national parks -
    even if not actually _good_ ag. land.)

    I understand agricultural land being protected, & vice versa since
    fertilizer runoff could be dangerous if homes are built in the drainage.

    Here's the local Silicon Valley zoning which contains what we have.
    <https://stgenpln.blob.core.windows.net/document/ZonOrd.pdf>

    I love the way you feel this need to mention "Silicon Valley" every time.


    Page 61 begins "HS" (hillside) zoning, which all the mountains are, where,
    in some areas, apparently, the lot size can be as small as 20 acres (8 hectares) when subdivisions occur. But where I am, they don't want any more people so there will never be more homes than there are currently here.

    "Here" is completely redundant in that last sentence.

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently here."

    Means precisely the same thing as:

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently."


    But far more germane:

    Page 61 does not "begin[] HS".

    It begins with the remaining text regarding "AR Districts" from the
    previous page.

    Specifically, the text that reads "Lot Size Reduction. A subdivision may include a lot or lots as small as 20 acres" is Section C of "2.020.060,
    AR Districts: Specific Subdivision and Road Provisions".

    After you get to "2.020.070 HS Districts: Supplemental Development
    Standards", one of the very first things it says is:

    "A. Setbacks?Substandard Named Subdivisions. Setbacks may be reduced on
    lots less than one acre..."

    Ergo, HS zoning MUST allow lots of far less than the 40 acres you first claimed applied to "every property".


    I'm wondering where you got the degrees you claim to have that you
    cannot follow such a simple flow of text?


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 11:34:43 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-03 16:43, Marian wrote:
    Andy Burns wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    Marian wrote:

    Where I live we have 40-acre zoning, so every property has to be a minimum >>>> of 40 acres

    So hugely different outlooks! I've never heard (though I'm sure you're
    right) of a _minimum_ property size before.
    I had heard of the phrase <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/back_forty>

    What I love about Usenet is we all work together as a team, where each individual brings a completely different perspective to each discussion.

    I didn't know about the "back forty" etymology, so I guess across the pond
    it would be called the "back fifteen" (given 40 acres is 15 hectares). :)

    Why 40 acres?

    They don't want anyone living in the mountains out here, so they make unrealistic zoning so that you can only put one house every 40 acres.
    <https://plandev.santaclaracounty.gov/codes-and-policies/zoning-ordinance>
    HS (Hillside District) = 40-acre minimum parcel size
    AR (Agricultural Ranchlands District) -> 40-acre minimum parcel size

    Both are codified in Chapter 2.40 of the County Ordinance Code at Section 2.40.110 (HS District). The verbatim wording of Section 2.40.110 (HS ? Hillside District) in the Santa Clara County Zoning Ordinance explicitly establishes the 40?acre minimum parcel size.

    Section 2.40.110 - HS Hillside District "The HS (Hillside) district is intended to preserve the natural character of the hillsides and to limit development to large parcels. The minimum parcel size in the HS district shall be forty (40) acres.

    So if you have 79 acres, you can only put a single house on that land.

    I have that document downloaded to my Mac right now.

    Article 2, Section 2.40 deals with (and this is right on the first page):

    "Commercial and Industrial Base Districts (CN, CG, OA, ML, MH)"

    Article 2, Section 2.20 deals with:

    "Rural Base Districts (A, AR, HS, RR)"

    So you're either reading off an older version of the document you'd
    previously acquired...

    ...or the supposed degree man cannot read!

    Furthermore, there is not "Section 2.40.110", nor does 2.20.110 (section
    2.20 having already been established as the section regarding the HS
    zoning district)...

    ...and the words "natural character" appear NOWHERE in the entire
    document, regardless of section.=

    Oops.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Your Name@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 10:26:36 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-04 11:20:38 +0000, J. P. Gilliver said:

    On 2025/12/4 0:43:14, Marian wrote:

    []

    What I love about Usenet is we all work together as a team, where each
    individual brings a completely different perspective to each discussion.

    This "minimum size" thing is certainly a different perspective! I don't _think_ anywhere in the UK has a minimum property size rule. (I vaguely remember - some decades ago - some people wanting to hinder development
    in some area sold off a field in square-yard patches, ideally to people abroad, thus making it difficult for any potential developer to even _contact_ all the owners, and something might have been done to prevent _that_, but we're talking many orders of magnitude different here!)

    []

    There are minimum land sizes for residential development in New
    Zealand. The actual figure depends on which regional city council it is
    as well as what the area is designated as (high density housing, low
    density housing, 'life-style block', etc.).

    I can't find any similar rules in the UK, but there is a minimum house
    size rule (depending on how many bedrooms, e.g. 37sqm for one bedroom
    house), and there is a quasi-rule as to how much land is required for a
    house (roughly 1.5 to 2 times the size of the house).



    The point is that we have such large parcels that we use Wi-Fi to reach
    hundreds of feet, which is easy for us since our radios go for miles.

    Whereas here the matter is more likely _preventing_ access by others,
    either accidentally or deliberately!

    In the UK, we limit building on agricultural land by what is generally referred to as planning permission, planning regulations, etc.; to a
    first approximation you need planning permission for any building work, anywhere (and in extremis if you build without it, you can be forced to
    take it down again, and probably fined too). There are exceptions and variations: you are allowed a certain amount of extension to existing buildings, and farmers need _less_ bureaucracy to erect agricultural buildings (e. g. barns) than dwelling-houses. In certain areas even the _type_ (style) of things is controlled, to preserve the character of the area; this may (and is!) sometimes seen as draconian, but the converse argument is that it is the character of the area that attracted you to
    it in the first place, and if you wanted to build a lot of concrete or
    tin boxes, you should have bought land somewhere else. But I'm getting
    off topic even from our off topic: basically, agricultural land is
    protected from being built on, basically on the basis that we need to preserve what ag. land we've got, at least where it's _good_ ag. land.
    (Also AONBs - areas of outstanding natural beauty - and national parks -
    even if not actually _good_ ag. land.)



    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Tyrone@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 22:20:31 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Dec 4, 2025 at 2:16:14?PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

    On 2025-12-04 08:08, Marian wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    In certain areas even the
    _type_ (style) of things is controlled, to preserve the character of the >>> area; this may (and is!) sometimes seen as draconian, but the converse
    argument is that it is the character of the area that attracted you to
    it in the first place, and if you wanted to build a lot of concrete or
    tin boxes, you should have bought land somewhere else.

    That reminds me. We have "albido" codes! Yup. Albido. If a house is on the >> mountain, it can't be "too visible" from the valley. The albido is a paint >> requirement that every home must meet so that it doesn't reflect too much.

    The word is "albEdo" with an "e":

    Another example of your supposed education at work...


    But I'm getting
    off topic even from our off topic: basically, agricultural land is
    protected from being built on, basically on the basis that we need to
    preserve what ag. land we've got, at least where it's _good_ ag. land.
    (Also AONBs - areas of outstanding natural beauty - and national parks - >>> even if not actually _good_ ag. land.)

    I understand agricultural land being protected, & vice versa since
    fertilizer runoff could be dangerous if homes are built in the drainage.

    Here's the local Silicon Valley zoning which contains what we have.
    <https://stgenpln.blob.core.windows.net/document/ZonOrd.pdf>

    I love the way you feel this need to mention "Silicon Valley" every time.


    Page 61 begins "HS" (hillside) zoning, which all the mountains are, where, >> in some areas, apparently, the lot size can be as small as 20 acres (8
    hectares) when subdivisions occur. But where I am, they don't want any more >> people so there will never be more homes than there are currently here.

    "Here" is completely redundant in that last sentence.

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently here."

    Means precisely the same thing as:

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently."


    But far more germane:

    Page 61 does not "begin[] HS".

    It begins with the remaining text regarding "AR Districts" from the
    previous page.

    Specifically, the text that reads "Lot Size Reduction. A subdivision may include a lot or lots as small as 20 acres" is Section C of "2.020.060,
    AR Districts: Specific Subdivision and Road Provisions".

    After you get to "2.020.070 HS Districts: Supplemental Development Standards", one of the very first things it says is:

    "A. Setbacks?Substandard Named Subdivisions. Setbacks may be reduced on
    lots less than one acre..."

    Ergo, HS zoning MUST allow lots of far less than the 40 acres you first claimed applied to "every property".

    Haven't you learned yet? We are not supposed to actually read the links that Arlen provides. We are supposed to just accept that the link says what Arlen claims it says.

    I'm wondering where you got the degrees you claim to have that you
    cannot follow such a simple flow of text?

    I'm guessing from online "colleges". Or a local junior college.

    Maybe Arlen can provide a link that he will claim proves that he has degrees.
    He will assume that no one will read it. But when we read it, it will of course say no such thing.

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Char Jackson@3:633/10 to All on Thu Dec 4 23:06:28 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 20:25:49 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    Instead, the current router has a very simple admin page with password >(printed in a label underneath the router) and help pages, and an
    advanced setup that asks "are you sure"? but has the same password and
    no help pages. And a complex setup.


    Wifi (ssid/pass), typeof security, and channel
    WiFi+
    WiFi for guests (ssid/pass, type of security

    Ports to open to what local machine

    LAN map
    LAN config (gateway, mask, dhcp on/off, range, dns1 dns2)

    Config is multiple (with NAT) or single post (transparent router)

    IPv6 (dhcp mode, ports, filter)

    router password

    Firmware updates

    Other (write/read profile, factory reset, wifi factory reset, firewall >disable, universal UPnP enable/disable.

    Help

    Advnced.

    I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same
    background.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 00:00:14 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-04 14:20, Tyrone wrote:
    On Dec 4, 2025 at 2:16:14?PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

    On 2025-12-04 08:08, Marian wrote:
    J. P. Gilliver wrote:

    In certain areas even the
    _type_ (style) of things is controlled, to preserve the character of the >>>> area; this may (and is!) sometimes seen as draconian, but the converse >>>> argument is that it is the character of the area that attracted you to >>>> it in the first place, and if you wanted to build a lot of concrete or >>>> tin boxes, you should have bought land somewhere else.

    That reminds me. We have "albido" codes! Yup. Albido. If a house is on the >>> mountain, it can't be "too visible" from the valley. The albido is a paint >>> requirement that every home must meet so that it doesn't reflect too much. >>
    The word is "albEdo" with an "e":

    Another example of your supposed education at work...


    But I'm getting
    off topic even from our off topic: basically, agricultural land is
    protected from being built on, basically on the basis that we need to
    preserve what ag. land we've got, at least where it's _good_ ag. land. >>>> (Also AONBs - areas of outstanding natural beauty - and national parks - >>>> even if not actually _good_ ag. land.)

    I understand agricultural land being protected, & vice versa since
    fertilizer runoff could be dangerous if homes are built in the drainage. >>>
    Here's the local Silicon Valley zoning which contains what we have.
    <https://stgenpln.blob.core.windows.net/document/ZonOrd.pdf>

    I love the way you feel this need to mention "Silicon Valley" every time.


    Page 61 begins "HS" (hillside) zoning, which all the mountains are, where, >>> in some areas, apparently, the lot size can be as small as 20 acres (8
    hectares) when subdivisions occur. But where I am, they don't want any more >>> people so there will never be more homes than there are currently here.

    "Here" is completely redundant in that last sentence.

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently here."

    Means precisely the same thing as:

    "But where I am, they don't want any more people[sic] so there will
    never be more homes than there are currently."


    But far more germane:

    Page 61 does not "begin[] HS".

    It begins with the remaining text regarding "AR Districts" from the
    previous page.

    Specifically, the text that reads "Lot Size Reduction. A subdivision may
    include a lot or lots as small as 20 acres" is Section C of "2.020.060,
    AR Districts: Specific Subdivision and Road Provisions".

    After you get to "2.020.070 HS Districts: Supplemental Development
    Standards", one of the very first things it says is:

    "A. Setbacks?Substandard Named Subdivisions. Setbacks may be reduced on
    lots less than one acre..."

    Ergo, HS zoning MUST allow lots of far less than the 40 acres you first
    claimed applied to "every property".

    Haven't you learned yet? We are not supposed to actually read the links that Arlen provides. We are supposed to just accept that the link says what Arlen claims it says.

    I'm wondering where you got the degrees you claim to have that you
    cannot follow such a simple flow of text?

    I'm guessing from online "colleges". Or a local junior college.

    Maybe Arlen can provide a link that he will claim proves that he has degrees.
    He will assume that no one will read it. But when we read it, it will of course say no such thing.

    Isn't interesting that Arlen replied to another post which was a reply
    to one of mine...

    ...but not the one with the actual substance rebutting his bullshit.

    No wait!

    Not "interesting" at all.

    Rather "utterly predictable"!

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Carlos E.R.@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 11:06:25 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-05 06:06, Char Jackson wrote:
    On Wed, 3 Dec 2025 20:25:49 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    Instead, the current router has a very simple admin page with password
    (printed in a label underneath the router) and help pages, and an
    advanced setup that asks "are you sure"? but has the same password and
    no help pages. And a complex setup.


    Wifi (ssid/pass), typeof security, and channel
    WiFi+
    WiFi for guests (ssid/pass, type of security

    Ports to open to what local machine

    LAN map
    LAN config (gateway, mask, dhcp on/off, range, dns1 dns2)

    Config is multiple (with NAT) or single post (transparent router)

    IPv6 (dhcp mode, ports, filter)

    router password

    Firmware updates

    Other (write/read profile, factory reset, wifi factory reset, firewall
    disable, universal UPnP enable/disable.

    Help

    Advnced.

    I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same background.

    Because that is the simple setup mode. You don't see there the virtual networks (VLANS) it has, for instance.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.
    ES??, EU??;

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 08:58:04 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-05 02:05, Marian wrote:
    Chris wrote:
    No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
    you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.

    https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator

    Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them, knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).

    From a label where the MAC address is typically written in tiny type...

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jolly Roger@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 17:37:43 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-05, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
    On 2025-12-05 02:05, Marian wrote:
    Chris wrote:

    No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave >>> you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.

    https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator

    Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them,
    knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).

    From a label where the MAC address is typically written in tiny type...

    I just ran this script with the BSSID of my WiFi access point, and it
    couldn't locate it:

    Searching for location of bssid: [redacted]
    The bssid was not found.

    Another nothing burger from little Arlen. YAWN...

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Chris@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 19:36:07 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
    Chris wrote:
    No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave
    you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.

    https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator

    Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them, knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).

    Until they retire that router, I can find where they installed that router, and it will be most likely where they live.

    So you can only track me if you physically sell me the router in a shop and write down the MAC address?

    I think I'll cope with that very serious potential privacy risk.
    Fortunately it's not the 1990s anymore.

    It still just boils down to knowing my home address. Which is already
    public knowledge.

    darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator (GitHub)

    Python tool to look up AP
    locations from Apple?s WPS.

    Queries by BSSID and returns
    coordinates.

    Shows how App'e?s API can return results without SSID values.





    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Jolly Roger@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 19:57:21 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-05, Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:
    Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> wrote:
    Chris wrote:
    No you don't. You said you could track me "if you were a bad guy". I gave >>> you permission and you could do nothing. Your paranoia is baseless.

    https://github.com/darkosancanin/apple_bssid_locator

    Let's say someone walks into the store to buy a router, and I watch them,
    knowing the router BSSID is printed on the box (so I write it down).

    Until they retire that router, I can find where they installed that router, >> and it will be most likely where they live.

    So you can only track me if you physically sell me the router in a shop and write down the MAC address?

    Even then it's not guaranteed to work. I just ran the script and plugged
    my BSSID in and got nothing. ?

    --
    E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
    I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

    JR

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Alan@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 17:18:37 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On 2025-12-05 16:49, Marian wrote:
    Chris wrote:
    It still just boils down to knowing my home address. Which is already
    public knowledge.

    Hi Chris,

    You're smarter than that.

    I get it that all the Apple trolls are desperate to minimize the privacy implications of what has widely been reported as a privacy nightmare.

    You Apple trolls always defend everything Apple to the death.
    No matter what.

    So it's natural that you and Jolly Roger claim that Apple's invasion of our privacy is, in the words of Jolly Roger "a nothing burger".

    But you need to realize privacy professionals out there disagree with you.
    *Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
    <https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>

    For you Apple trolls to claim the security professionals are wrong is your own way of defending everything Apple does, to the death, no matter what.
    *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
    <https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>

    Luckily, of all the Apple trolls, you're one who sometimes can exercise critical thinking processes, so allow me to give you a local example.

    Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a single SSID or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it
    also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's Wi-Fi Positioning System has observed in the same area.... just... try this...

    Windows:
    1. Press Win+R
    2. Type: cmd
    3. In the command prompt, type:
    netsh wlan show networks mode=bssid
    4. Look for your SSID name
    5. Under it, find "BSSID" lines
    6. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

    Linux:
    1. Open a terminal
    2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
    3. Find your SSID in the output
    4. Look for "Address:" lines
    5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

    MacOS:
    1. Open a terminal
    2. Type: airport -s
    3. Find your SSID in the list
    4. Copy the BSSID shown (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

    Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
    1. Open the WaveDigger site:
    https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
    2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
    11:22:33:AA:BB:CC
    3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
    4. The map will show the location of that access point.
    If you enable "include surrounding access points",
    it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.

    Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a
    new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.

    Except you won't know WHICH of the BSSIDs that are returned belong to
    your neighbours.

    From WaveDigger (the site you didn't know about until I told you):

    "Access points shown may be 1-2km away from your click location."

    So?

    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)
  • From Char Jackson@3:633/10 to All on Fri Dec 5 22:59:35 2025
    Subject: Re: Discussion: How to set up your mobile devices & home router for privacy/security

    On Fri, 5 Dec 2025 11:06:25 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
    <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

    On 2025-12-05 06:06, Char Jackson wrote:

    <snip>

    I don't see anything complex there, but we don't all have the same
    background.

    Because that is the simple setup mode. You don't see there the virtual >networks (VLANS) it has, for instance.

    In the early 2000s I used to think that dd-wrt router firmware was
    complex, but the fog clears over time. It includes vlans, among many
    other things.


    --- PyGate Linux v1.5.1
    * Origin: Dragon's Lair, PyGate NNTP<>Fido Gate (3:633/10)