Micky,

I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt results
from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch
off the monitor" state. On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active
first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your 'puter will be in.

The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of watching a movie or listening to music. You don't want your 'puter to
"switch off" in the middle of it).

By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" sleep. The former starts faster but uses battery. The latter starts
slower, but needs some disk space.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser



--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

:
On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200
"R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Micky,

I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt results
from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch off the monitor" state. On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your 'puter will be in.

The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of watching a movie or listening to music. You don't want your 'puter to "switch off" in the middle of it).

By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" sleep. The former starts faster but uses battery. The latter starts slower, but needs some disk space.

WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
called "Standby".
You could either set the timers in "Power Options" or manually choose them
from the "Start" "ShutDown" menu.



--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Dis (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

John,

WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep
was called "Standby".

I could not remember those names when I was responding to the OP, and as he was struggeling with the concept (and not the setting of them) I didn't
think it was too important. I perhaps should not even have mentioned it.

You could either set the timers in "Power Options" or manually choose
them from the "Start" "ShutDown" menu.

On my machine I get just three buttons : ""Standby", "Shutdown" an "Reboot". Can't remember having ever seen both sleep modi there.

(pet peeve: I've disabled "standby" on my desktop 'puter, but although its button is grayed out its, for whatever reason, still there. :-| )

Regards,
Rudy Wieser



--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200, "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Micky,

I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt results
from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch >off the monitor" state.

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
snipped to "going into sleep". But I'm not referring to something it
does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
Sleep.

On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active
first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

Mine does that too, but I"m not counting that.

FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your >'puter will be in.

Maybe that was the rule at one time, but I'm reporting what happens now,
in win10, and it seems to depend on what window has focus. For
comparison, the window that has focus determines whether the Mute and
volume buttons work or not. I haven't kept a list but one example is
that when Task Manager is open, the mute and volume buttons don't work
(at least the 3 keys I have assigned to those duties by Autohotkey).

The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter >that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of >watching a movie or listening to music. You don't want your 'puter to >"switch off" in the middle of it).

By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator >lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, >the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for 30
seconds and then switches to flashing red**. When I tap the space
bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds later the
screen lights up again. Perhaps people will say it wasn't really
sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep. So maybe that
button is mislabeled.

**The Acer owners manual doesn't say what the flashing red light should
mean.

Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post. That is, this time,
the same thing happened while in Solitaire as in Eudora, Agent, or
Notepad, and mouse movement didn't waken the computer even in Solitaire.
Last night and many prior nights going back weeks or months, and 4 hours
ago, it happened over and over and over that accidentally touching the
mouse would light up the screen, even after clicking on Sleep. I'll
have to do some more testing or wait until it gets back to the way it's
been for weeks, months.

None of this was noticeable before I started frequently sleeping in my
desk chair, and wanting to turn off the screen light. Before then, I
almost never clicked on Sleep. I just let it time out.

By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" >sleep. The former starts faster but uses battery. The latter starts >slower, but needs some disk space.

Yes, I know. My laptop is plugged in 99.99% of the time.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

John, I've enabled Hibernate, and it's listed in the Shutdown options,
but that's not what I click on.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Tweaknews (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 01/05/2025 09:59, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 08:28:17 +0200, "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Micky,

I've been annoyed that a slight movement of the mouse wakes the PC
up (and I was suspecting that timing out gave differewnt results
from using Start/Sleep, but that's not it.)

You might well be confusing "sleep" with the screen-saver and the "switch
off the monitor" state.

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
snipped to "going into sleep". But I'm not referring to something it
does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
Sleep.

On my 'puter the screen saver becomes active
first, and some time after that the monitor "switches off" (goes to black).

Mine does that too, but I"m not counting that.

FYI: The program thats running has *no* control over the sleep state your
'puter will be in.

Maybe that was the rule at one time, but I'm reporting what happens now,
in win10, and it seems to depend on what window has focus. For
comparison, the window that has focus determines whether the Mute and
volume buttons work or not. I haven't kept a list but one example is
that when Task Manager is open, the mute and volume buttons don't work
(at least the 3 keys I have assigned to those duties by Autohotkey).

The reverse however sometimes happens : it a program might tell the 'puter >> that it should not enter a screen-saver / sleep state at all (think of
watching a movie or listening to music. You don't want your 'puter to
"switch off" in the middle of it).

By the way, normally when a 'puter goes into "sleep" mode most indicator
lights (like caps and scrollock) will go off - but one, indicating (to you, >> the user) that the 'puter is sleeping, and not powered-down.

Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for 30 seconds and then switches to flashing red**. When I tap the space
bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds later the
screen lights up again. Perhaps people will say it wasn't really
sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep. So maybe that
button is mislabeled.

**The Acer owners manual doesn't say what the flashing red light should
mean.

Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post. That is, this time,
the same thing happened while in Solitaire as in Eudora, Agent, or
Notepad, and mouse movement didn't waken the computer even in Solitaire.
Last night and many prior nights going back weeks or months, and 4 hours
ago, it happened over and over and over that accidentally touching the
mouse would light up the screen, even after clicking on Sleep. I'll
have to do some more testing or wait until it gets back to the way it's
been for weeks, months.

None of this was noticeable before I started frequently sleeping in my
desk chair, and wanting to turn off the screen light. Before then, I
almost never clicked on Sleep. I just let it time out.

By the way #2 : your puter has *two* sleep states, a "light", and a "deep" >> sleep. The former starts faster but uses battery. The latter starts
slower, but needs some disk space.

Yes, I know. My laptop is plugged in 99.99% of the time.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

John, I've enabled Hibernate, and it's listed in the Shutdown options,
but that's not what I click on.

Presumably various settings including security and perhaps the BIOS have
an effect.

Using Shut down, Sleep with my Acer Win 11 laptop blanks the screen but
leaves the blue running diode on. A key press or mouse click has no
effect regardless of whether or not any program is running. Restarting requires pressing the on/off key and entering a PIN as usual.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

Micky,

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing
out, but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that
you snipped to "going into sleep".

I re-read your post and see I indeed missed you saying you used start/sleep. My apologies.

Also, it seems my standby/hibernate knowledge is a bit dated (and there are more than just two modi)

Let me add that when I click on Windows (what I called Start before)/Shutdown/Sleep the Acer power-indicator light stays blue for
30 seconds and then switches to flashing red**. When I tap the
space bar, the light immediately changes to blue and a few seconds
later the screen lights up again. Perhaps people will say it wasn't
really sleeping, but in every instance I clicked on Sleep. So maybe
that button is mislabeled.

That flashing red does seem to be a strong indication that your 'puter has indeed (some kind of) sleep mode.

Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.

Don't be. It speak for you that you decided to re-check your facts. It doesn't mean your previous data was false, just that either something else
is happening too, or something has changed in the mean time.

(I'm not going to tell you that, when I had a problem and wanted to post
about it and tried to re-create the problem to get my information correct, I could not reproduce it either. :-) )

But with the info from you and others here I'm afraid I'm currently outof ideas.

I hope you find someone who knows.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser



--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 5/1/2025 4:59 AM, micky wrote:

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
snipped to "going into sleep". But I'm not referring to something it
does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
Sleep.

Go into device manager, select the mouse, look for power
management tab. Go into that and deselect the option to
wake from sleep. Use only the keyboard.

If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was
called "Standby".

Now you have "modern standby"

<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>

Oh lovely. And there's this gem:

"Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a
setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in
Windows without a complete OS re-install."

Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether
one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10

My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:

powercfg /availablesleepstates

Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and
I'm glad to see I don't have it.

This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the
various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the
above powercfg command:

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html

Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg
says I have):

"Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation
file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case
the system loses power while in sleep."

--
Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
Shikata ga nai...

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Oak Road Systems (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 11:51:43 -0400, Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:

On 5/1/2025 4:59 AM, micky wrote:

I don't think so. I pointed out that I was not talking about timing out,
but then I confused things, my bad, by referring in part that you
snipped to "going into sleep". But I'm not referring to something it
does without my input, but in all cases to something I do, namely
clicking on the Windows button in the bottom left (what I think used to
be called Start), and then the arrow in the Shutdown list, and then
Sleep.

Go into device manager, select the mouse, look for power
management tab. Go into that and deselect the option to
wake from sleep. Use only the keyboard.

I asked about this maybe a year ago and someone here, maybe even you,
told me to do this. Of my two computers in use at the time, and the 3
mice or touchpads, only two had a power management tab.

I have reminded myself which ones they are, and
The desktop with win10 PRO has that tab.
The laptop with win10 HOME has that tab for the external mouse, but
not for for the built-in mouse. (I wonder if the tab would appear if
there were no external mouse!) ---- But a year ago, if it was
checked, I unchecked. "Allow the device to wake the computer" (and it's
still unchecked). I think I later checked it, saved it, and unchecked
and saved it, just in case it wasnt' really unchecked, but that changed nothing. And the mouse would still wake the computer, when I pressed a
button or even just moving the mouse.

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time,
but now the mouse won't wake the computer. Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect.


BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first. That
surprises me.

If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow. So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a
PS2 adapter on it so you can plug it into the PS2 port, right?

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current
problem, has no PS2 port. :-( )

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Tweaknews (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 17:35:58 +0200, "R.Wieser" <address@is.invalid> wrote:

Unfortunately, I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't duplicated the
results I got 4 hours ago, before my first post.

Don't be. It speak for you that you decided to re-check your facts. It

Very nice of you. It's pretty amazing that the problem fixed itself
within 4 hours of my complaining. But it may show up again, next time
I want to sleep myself.

doesn't mean your previous data was false, just that either something else >is happening too, or something has changed in the mean time.

(I'm not going to tell you that, when I had a problem and wanted to post >about it and tried to re-create the problem to get my information correct, I >could not reproduce it either. :-) )

But with the info from you and others here I'm afraid I'm currently outof >ideas.

I hope you find someone who knows.

Thank you. I like the way it's working now and soon I plan to be using
a newer win11 laptop. I haven't tested it's sleeping habits yet.

Regards,

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Tweaknews (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 5/1/2025 2:03 PM, micky wrote:

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time,
but now the mouse won't wake the computer. Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect.

Ah. That explains it. It's one of those rare annual settings. :)

BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first. That
surprises me.

If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow. So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a
PS2 adapter on it so you can plug it into the PS2 port, right?

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current problem, has no PS2 port. :-( )

I rarely use a laptop. I have a USB wireless mouse when I
do. Life's too short for laptop ergonomics. I'm not sure I've ever
used it enough to even care about sleep!

The PS2 thing is weird. PS2 ports were almost phased out, but
the computer I built last year -- MSI Pro B760 -- has both PS2
ports. It's all down under the desk right now and I'm not
sure of details, but at least the keyboard is either PS2 or has
a PS2 adapter. It's an old Logitech off-white that I don't want
to give up. I hate black keyboards. I can't see the letters well
enough.

At any rate, the PS2 advantage is only due to this MSI board's
peculiar configuration. If you don't have a BIOS option to
wake up from PS2 then it won't matter.


--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Thu, 5/1/2025 2:28 PM, micky wrote:

Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below: Working S0 The system is fully usable. Hardware components
that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.

Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
operational" which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle????? Or
maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds?

S0 is not a sleep state. That's the "operating" state.

The rest of it, mixes two schemes together, to no particular purpose.

The purpose of states, is to draw state diagrams, and as
a classification mechanism for behaviors. You will notice
there is "air space" between the textual words. This is
meant to imply "something poorly designed is missing", OK ?
We simply expunge the parts we don't understand, to help
people deal with the parts that might have meaning to them.

Operating Sleep Hibernate SoftOff (MechanicalOff)
+5VSB switched off

The newest idea, doesn't like the states, so it crushes some
together. It can do this, because there are other states
that can be used. C0...C6,C12. Where C12 would be a state where
a processor core has lost all power. To keep a CPU running at
top clock rate, and not taking a break from that top clock
rate, you can turn off the C state handling at the BIOS level.

Even the instrumentation has taken a nose dive. But an
understandable one. If I run CPUZ and check the clock rate,
the clock rate might measure 3.4GHz or 4GHz or so. The
act of measuring the thing, like Heisenburg Uncertainty,
pollutes the reading. CPUZ uses a straightforward measurement
method that more of the CPUs could support. AMD Ryzen Master
uses some instrumentation in the CPU (there are Performance Counters
for all sorts of things, for which the info is thin). The clock
measured there, is likely being measured by a logic block and
does not require spinning up a CPU core to do the math. Then,
the two measurements are at odds with one another.

When equipment has external power consumption (you pull the
battery out of the laptop, forcing it to be honest about
its power usage), even when the equipment lies, the power
consumption does not lie. I can tell when Task Manager is
hiding things. I can watch the LEDs on my IPV4 network,
for evidence of skullduggery. The 1800+ pages of ACPI specs
add nothing to the color commentary any more, due to a
confused set of purposes.

*******

Now, let's check mine. I have removed the garbage from the trace.

powercfg /availablesleepstates

The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S3) <=== That's a deep sleep state with a fast recovery (2-3 seconds)

The following sleep states are not available on this system:

Hibernate <=== This is bashful S4 state
Hibernation has not been enabled.


It seems my machine can sleep, but not hibernate. It might
have soft off and it definitely has mechanical off (there is
a mains switch on the back or I can pull the cord out of the wall).

When it is in S0 state, the cores are dancing a jig. If you
look in AMD Ryzen Master, one core is running at 500MHz or so,
the other cores are "C6 or lower". C12 is the lowest state
for the CPU. On the 5700G, this is 32 watts (but some of that power
is for the NVidia card). On the 5600G, this is 22 watts (uses iGPU).

500 Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep Sleep # My 5700G right now (Ryzen Master readout)

C0 <=C6 <=C6 <=C6 <=C6 <=C6 <=C6 <=C6 # Imaginary core states

[ ] # Machine is in S0, while CPU cores dance a jig

What was curious about one machine here, is the power consumption
changed with time. When initially built, I got one power figure
at idle. Then one day, the power was cut in half at idle. The
other machines missed this transition and have been consistent
since being built. The machines were built, while debugging
my daily driver (which had some really weird crashes I needed
to understand). The issue is fixed... but leaving me with
an excess of test equipment. That is why I have lots of
data points to offer now.

Paul

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Thu, 5/1/2025 3:48 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

On 5/1/2025 2:03 PM, micky wrote:

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time,
but now the mouse won't wake the computer.ÿ Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect.

Ah. That explains it. It's one of those rare annual settings. :)

BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first.ÿ That
surprises me.

ÿÿ If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow.ÿ So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a
PS2 adapter on it soÿ you can plug it into the PS2 port, right?

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current
problem, has no PS2 port.ÿÿ :-(ÿÿÿ )

ÿÿ I rarely use a laptop. I have a USB wireless mouse when I
do. Life's too short for laptop ergonomics. I'm not sure I've ever
used it enough to even care about sleep!

ÿ The PS2 thing is weird. PS2 ports were almost phased out, but
the computer I built last year -- MSI Pro B760 -- has both PS2
ports. It's all down under the desk right now and I'm not
sure of details, but at least the keyboard is either PS2 or has
a PS2 adapter. It's an old Logitech off-white that I don't want
to give up. I hate black keyboards. I can't see the letters well
enough.

ÿ At any rate, the PS2 advantage is only due to this MSI board's
peculiar configuration. If you don't have a BIOS option to
wake up from PS2 then it won't matter.

PS2 is a great standard. Why ? Because it works, that's why :-)
You can't say that about very much of the computer.

Hardly any driver is required. That's part of it. It's a low rate
serial interface of sorts. And it seems to run right away.

You could lose control of a PC for up to a couple minutes, while waiting
for the USB to cut in. That's if the computer decides it has
never seen nor tasted your USB keyboard and USB mouse before.
It's quite slow to finish hardware discovery. And it has to
draw those silly ass animations on the screen. "I am discovering
your USB ports" "I am having a coffee to refresh myself"
"I am considering installing the same driver that was here
last week" "OK, turkey, you can use your keyboard now snicker"

Paul

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 5/2/2025 6:58 AM, Paul wrote:

On Thu, 5/1/2025 3:48 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

On 5/1/2025 2:03 PM, micky wrote:

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time, >>> but now the mouse won't wake the computer.ÿ Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect.

Ah. That explains it. It's one of those rare annual settings. :)

BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first.ÿ That
surprises me.

ÿÿ If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow.ÿ So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a >>> PS2 adapter on it soÿ you can plug it into the PS2 port, right?

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current
problem, has no PS2 port.ÿÿ :-(ÿÿÿ )

ÿÿ I rarely use a laptop. I have a USB wireless mouse when I
do. Life's too short for laptop ergonomics. I'm not sure I've ever
used it enough to even care about sleep!

ÿ The PS2 thing is weird. PS2 ports were almost phased out, but
the computer I built last year -- MSI Pro B760 -- has both PS2
ports. It's all down under the desk right now and I'm not
sure of details, but at least the keyboard is either PS2 or has
a PS2 adapter. It's an old Logitech off-white that I don't want
to give up. I hate black keyboards. I can't see the letters well
enough.

ÿ At any rate, the PS2 advantage is only due to this MSI board's
peculiar configuration. If you don't have a BIOS option to
wake up from PS2 then it won't matter.

PS2 is a great standard. Why ? Because it works, that's why :-)
You can't say that about very much of the computer.

Hardly any driver is required. That's part of it. It's a low rate
serial interface of sorts. And it seems to run right away.

You could lose control of a PC for up to a couple minutes, while waiting
for the USB to cut in. That's if the computer decides it has
never seen nor tasted your USB keyboard and USB mouse before.
It's quite slow to finish hardware discovery. And it has to
draw those silly ass animations on the screen. "I am discovering
your USB ports" "I am having a coffee to refresh myself"
"I am considering installing the same driver that was here
last week" "OK, turkey, you can use your keyboard now snicker"

I'd be hesitant to buy another PS2 device, only because
I can't be certain of support. For many years my motherboards
had a half-green/half-purple PS2 port that seemed to be an
afterthought. "Deprecated", as MS like to say. I was very
surprised to find 2 such ports on my new board. So, is PS2
making a comeback? Is there some shady USB Consortium
trying to prevent a comeback? Is GenZ having nostalgia for
what they never knew, asking for PS2?

That might help to
explain the unlikely craze of people wanting their monitor to
look like a DOS screen. After so many years trying to get 24-bit
color, now the kids want a screen that looks like what hackers in
movies use.



--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Fri, 5/2/2025 8:15 AM, Newyana2 wrote:

On 5/2/2025 6:58 AM, Paul wrote:

On Thu, 5/1/2025 3:48 PM, Newyana2 wrote:

On 5/1/2025 2:03 PM, micky wrote:

That was true until sometime between 1 and 5 this morning, eastern time, >>>> but now the mouse won't wake the computer.ÿ Apparently it took a year
for the change you suggested to take effect.

Ah. That explains it. It's one of those rare annual settings. :)

BTW, in Device Manager, the external mouse is listed first.ÿ That
surprises me.

ÿÿÿ If that doesn't work, which sometimes happens on newer
computers, that means the BIOS is controling it. On my
current computer I can't stop the mouse from waking if
I enable USB waking in the BIOS. My only choice was to
select PS2 waking and get a PS2 adapter for my keyboard!

Wow.ÿ So you are using the PS2 port on the PC, and a USB keyboard with a >>>> PS2 adapter on it soÿ you can plug it into the PS2 port, right?

(I actually still have some PS2 keyboards, but the laptop, the current >>>> problem, has no PS2 port.ÿÿ :-(ÿÿÿ )

ÿÿÿ I rarely use a laptop. I have a USB wireless mouse when I
do. Life's too short for laptop ergonomics. I'm not sure I've ever
used it enough to even care about sleep!

ÿÿ The PS2 thing is weird. PS2 ports were almost phased out, but
the computer I built last year -- MSI Pro B760 -- has both PS2
ports. It's all down under the desk right now and I'm not
sure of details, but at least the keyboard is either PS2 or has
a PS2 adapter. It's an old Logitech off-white that I don't want
to give up. I hate black keyboards. I can't see the letters well
enough.

ÿÿ At any rate, the PS2 advantage is only due to this MSI board's
peculiar configuration. If you don't have a BIOS option to
wake up from PS2 then it won't matter.

PS2 is a great standard. Why ? Because it works, that's why :-)
You can't say that about very much of the computer.

Hardly any driver is required. That's part of it. It's a low rate
serial interface of sorts. And it seems to run right away.

You could lose control of a PC for up to a couple minutes, while waiting
for the USB to cut in. That's if the computer decides it has
never seen nor tasted your USB keyboard and USB mouse before.
It's quite slow to finish hardware discovery. And it has to
draw those silly ass animations on the screen. "I am discovering
your USB ports" "I am having a coffee to refresh myself"
"I am considering installing the same driver that was here
last week" "OK, turkey, you can use your keyboard now snicker"

ÿ I'd be hesitant to buy another PS2 device, only because
I can't be certain of support. For many years my motherboards
had a half-green/half-purple PS2 port that seemed to be an
afterthought. "Deprecated", as MS like to say. I was very
surprised to find 2 such ports on my new board. So, is PS2
making a comeback? Is there some shady USB Consortium
trying to prevent a comeback? Is GenZ having nostalgia for
what they never knew, asking for PS2?

ÿÿ That might help to
explain the unlikely craze of people wanting their monitor to
look like a DOS screen. After so many years trying to get 24-bit
color, now the kids want a screen that looks like what hackers in
movies use.

PS/2 is free... for as long as we continue to have SuperIO chips.

I think initially, Intel wanted to get rid of the SuperIO chip.
That hasn't happened. It still has hardware monitor functions
for example. It was also providing the RS232 function on my ten
year old boards. In some cases, the fact there was an RS232 header
on the motherboard, did not even appear in any advertising.
But I was pleasantly surprised to find a header with
a "different pinout than normal", and that was an RS232, and
there was a TI75232 physical layer chip right next to it.

If there is a weird low speed function, it can find a home
on the SuperIO. I'm surprised some kind of RGB LED controller
is not on the thing by now :-) You know, for all your waterfall
or rainbow patterns. That's very important to me, and why
the newest computer case here has two solid metal black panels
so none of that light leaks out :-) The light is so nice,
it stays inside the case where it belongs.

One of the PCs, the LEDs continue running when the PC is in S5.
The case has some grill holes, and occasionally I catch sight
of that running in there. I can unplug it, as it's on a harness
and can be unplugged. But it looks like I paid for those LEDs,
and there they are.

Paul



--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Fri, 5/2/2025 1:48 AM, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 01 May 2025 14:28:28 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Thu, 1 May 2025 10:45:08 -0700, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:

On Thu, 1 May 2025 08:46:53 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

WIWAL the "deep" sleep was called "Hibernate". The "light" sleep was >>>>> called "Standby".

Now you have "modern standby"

<https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/modern-standby>

Oh lovely. And there's this gem:

"Switching between S3 and Modern Standby cannot be done by changing a
setting in the BIOS. Switching the power model is not supported in
Windows without a complete OS re-install."

Is there any reasonably straightforward way for to find out whether
one has S3 or Modern Standby? I think so, from this article:

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-determine-power-sleep-states-supported-windows-10

My TL;DR take: in an admin command prompt, paste this command:

powercfg /availablesleepstates

For my 9 y.o. laptop, built maybe for win8 shows what follows and my
desktop shows the same thing, exactly:

The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S3)
Hibernate -- elsewhere called s4
Hybrid Sleep **
Fast Startup -- not the same fast startup as is set in the BIOS.
Somehow they used the same words for both. There must be a word
shortage.

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
Standby (S1)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
Standby (S2)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
Standby (S0 Low Power Idle)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.

Below I quote pages that say S0 is standard operation status, but here
it says I don't have it. so I must not be operationg. ;-( With so many
possible numbers, did they change the meaning of S0. Maybe there is a
number shortage.

This is what the "new", 3 or 4 year old, Dell 5010?? laptop runing win
11 shows for possible sleep states:

PS C:\Users\mmm> powercfg /a
The following sleep states are available on this system:
Standby (S0 Low Power Idle) Network Connected
Hibernate
Fast Startup

---So it doesn't list S3, or Hybrid Sleep, only S0. So I won't have
Hybrid Sleep anymore?? ---

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
Standby (S1)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
Standby (S2)
The system firmware does not support this standby state.
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
Standby (S3)
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
Hybrid Sleep
----- So S1, S2 and S3 are all disabled when S0 is supported.
So S0 must be awfully important. How come you don't
want it, Stan? Or is this a different S0?
Standby (S3) is not available. ----- But I want it!!!!!

**So if I have available Hybrid Sleep and S3 standby, how come neither
is listed in my Shutdown options, only "Sleep". and is Sleep one of
those two, Hybrid Sleep or S3, or maybe it's neither. Oy.

"With each successive sleep state, from S1 to S4, more of the computer
is shut down. All ACPI-compliant computers shut off their processor
clocks at S1 and lose system hardware context at S4 (unless a hibernate
file is written before shutdown), as listed in the sections below."
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/kernel/system-sleeping-states
Mine doesn't seem to mention s4, but it turns out that hibernate is s4.
suppose because it's 9 years old.

Modern Standby = "S0 lower-power idle", according to the article, and
I'm glad to see I don't have it.

Why don't you want it?

Anyhow, according to several pages, including the one you list below:
Working S0 The system is fully usable. Hardware components
that are not in use can save power by entering a lower power state.

Googles AI, which I don't trust at all, says "S0 (Active):
This is the standard working state where the computer is fully
operational" which is pretty close to what the pages I do trust say. So
maybe you have S0 but S0 on win10 is not lower power idle????? Or
maybe lower power idle is not as idle as it sounds?

This next article gives clear and detailed descriptions of the
various sleep states. That helps in interpreting the output of the
above powercfg command:

Oh, you already have a link to explain it

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/63346-sleep-states-available-your-windows-10-pc.html

Here's that article's explanation of Hybrid Sleep (which powercfg
says I have):

"Hybrid sleep, used on desktops, is where a system uses a hibernation
file with S1-S3. The hibernation file saves the system state in case
the system loses power while in sleep."

The following sleep states are not available on this system:
Standby (S3)
This standby state is disabled when S0 low power idle is supported.
Hybrid Sleep
----- So S1, S2 and S3 are all disabled when S0 is supported.
So S0 must be awfully important. How come you don't
want it, Stan? Or is this a different S0?
Standby (S3) is not available. ----- But I want it!!!!!

You have Modern Standby, which saves power in a similar way to S3,
just with some slightly different details. Modern Standby covers
the area from S0 thru S3 inclusive. The machine can choose to use
all its resources (as the S0 end of the scale), or it can be
a miser and only run the RAM sticks, while the CPU is in C12 state.
It does not save exactly as much power as a true S3, but it is
pretty close to that.

S3 Sleep is not a zero-power state. On one of my machines,
S3 draws 7 watts (for eight DIMMs in auto-refresh). If you are
on battery, the machine eventually hits the warning track
for full hibernation, the machine writes to disk and S4 hibernates.
Now, the power is cut (to protect the battery pack from being
over-discharged). If hibernation is disabled, it would go
from Modern Standby to S5 and your session would be lost.

Paul


--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 21/05/2025 20:21, micky wrote:

I finally noticed a distinction in what sleep does, depending afaict on
what program has focus when the PC goes to sleep.

I couldn't reproduce this.

Sleep involves multiple stages, broadly categorised into two phases:
non-REM (NREM) sleep and REM sleep. NREM sleep is further divided into
three stages (N1, N2, and N3), with each stage representing increasing
depths of sleep. REM sleep is the fourth stage and is characterised by
rapid eye movements and increased brain activity.
Detailed Breakdown of Sleep Stages:

N1 (Light Sleep):
This is the transition from wakefulness to sleep, characterised by light
sleep and drowsiness.

N2 (Light Sleep):
A deeper stage of sleep than N1, where heart rate and breathing slow,
and body temperature drops.

N3 (Deep Sleep):
This is the deepest stage of sleep, crucial for physical restoration and energy replenishment.

REM (Rapid Eye Movement Sleep):
This stage is characterised by increased brain activity, rapid eye
movements, and often vivid dreaming.

Sleep Cycle and Duration:
The 5 Stages Of Sleep Cycle - Stress Coach Training
A typical sleep cycle includes all four stages and lasts approximately
90 minutes. Over the course of a night, individuals cycle through these
stages multiple times, with the proportion of time spent in each stage
varying throughout the night.

Importance of Different Sleep Stages:
Each stage of sleep plays a unique role in maintaining physical and
mental well-being. Deep sleep is essential for physical recovery and
memory consolidation. REM sleep is important for cognitive functions and emotional processing. Insufficient or disrupted sleep can negatively
impact various aspects of health, including mood, immune function, and cognitive performance.




--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: To protect and to server (3:633/280.2@fidonet)