On Mon, 4/21/2025 11:51 AM, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10, on Mon, 21 Apr 2025 03:52:35 -0400, Paul

I don't believe projections like this. "The guy who owns a pony,
keeps drawing charts where the pony wins."

https://blocksandfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Wikibon-SSD-less-than-HDD-in-2026.jpg

I think I saw a similar graph that showed SSDs the same price as HDDs in 2030.

I just did a search for "4TB drive" at my local computer store web site,
and for some reason, the SSDs have shifted up a bit since the last time
I looked, and they're more than the 4TB hard drives.

The topper, was a PCIe Rev5 NVME 4TB for $800 CDN, which is about twice
the price of a Rev4 one. That's why there can't be an 8TB one of those,
because it would cost $1600, which is above any "magic number" storage
people can think of. The stuff that was storage and cost $1200 in
the past, no one was buying it. At this point, the product is totally
smoke and mirrors.

(This is the US pricing)

https://www.newegg.com/SAMSUNG-4TB-9100-PRO-NVMe-2-0/p/N82E16820147904

(And this is the kind for a reference price for 4TB of storage, vacation trip friendly
but still steal-able by the hotel cleaning lady)

https://www.newegg.com/SAMSUNG-4TB-870-EVO-Series-SATA/p/N82E16820147795

This is one that's really ready to go on vacation. These aren't perfect,
but unlike ordinary USB sticks, this one is more of an SSD inside
and more likely (not proven) to have wear leveling. I expect that's
going to get warm in usage (just the controller will get warm).

https://www.newegg.com/patriot-model-pef1tbrpmw32u/p/N82E16820225289

Paul

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On 4/21/2025 6:29 PM, Paul wrote:

The reason you want your backup drive moved some distance from
the PC, is in case of a lightning hit.

But also so that it's not connected if you get malware.
USB *might* be safe from something like a surge, but leaving
a backup drive connected means it's no longer a backup
drive. It's just an addition.

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On Mon, 21 Apr 2025 17:45:40 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

While SAS exists and could in principle be put in your
home computer, I've yet to read an account where someone
claims they got a good result by doing this.

I guess that would depend on how you define 'good result'. I've been
using a 2-port SAS controller (8 SATA ports when using SATA breakout
cables) since 2009 and I've been completely happy with it. I haven't benchmarked anything since I'm not one of the kids who needs to brag
about transfer speeds, but in actual practice I see absolutely no
performance difference between the SAS-connected drives versus the
onboard SATA-connected drives.

That setup worked well enough that I bought a second identical
controller in about 2010-2011 so that I could finish building out that
server with 16 drives, but I only ever used one SAS port (4 SATA ports)
on the second controller because the rest of the drives could use mobo
SATA ports. One of the controller features that's rather nice is that
they spin up the drives in a staggered manner, with the stagger delay
being configurable. That's better than hammering the PSU with spinning
up 16 drives all at once.

I don't remember much about the SAS controller and I don't have access
to that server at the moment, but the driver says "Marvell mvs94xx" so
that may be a hint.

I don't
know exactly what is wrong, with using them. They should
work, but the transfer rates usually end up "sub-par".
It cannot transfer any faster than a SATA drive, in the
sense that the read channel at the platter can only go
so fast, which today is around ~300MB/sec best case.

<snip>


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In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 4/20/2025 10:38 PM, Ant wrote:

For me, I prefer cheaper and bigger old fashion HDDs over expensive
SSDs. I remember paying over 100 USD for a 5 TB USB3 ext. HDD from Costco.com and Amazon.com. I'm still waiting for SSDs to be match HDD on their prices and sizes.

I don't believe projections like this. "The guy who owns a pony,
keeps drawing charts where the pony wins."

https://blocksandfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Wikibon-SSD-less-than-HDD-in-2026.jpg

To bump the chart along, will require someone to make another
storage type. There was Optane, but the last devices shipped
cost $3000 each, to give some idea why they no longer exist
as a competitor. No denying it had nice characteristics
(it could be written at individual locations, rather than
large blocks).

Because the Optane had a speed advantage at one point, it forced
one of the NAND companies to reduce their latency by a factor of 2.
Which would never have happened, unless there was a faster pony
coming up from behind. I think everyone watching that, could
enjoy the humor of it. the other party, having to get off their
lazy butt and fix something. I don't think the lower latency
part, still ships today. And that's because of the process of
optimization, you squeeze every penny out of the thing, and
there is only one way to make the cheapest part. So the lower
latency just has to go.

It says 2021 at the bottom. With stupid enforced traffics in USA, I doubt this will happen. :(
--
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Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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On Tue, 4/22/2025 2:07 AM, Ant wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 4/20/2025 10:38 PM, Ant wrote:

For me, I prefer cheaper and bigger old fashion HDDs over expensive
SSDs. I remember paying over 100 USD for a 5 TB USB3 ext. HDD from
Costco.com and Amazon.com. I'm still waiting for SSDs to be match HDD on >>> their prices and sizes.

I don't believe projections like this. "The guy who owns a pony,
keeps drawing charts where the pony wins."

https://blocksandfiles.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Wikibon-SSD-less-than-HDD-in-2026.jpg

It says 2021 at the bottom. With stupid enforced traffics in USA, I doubt this will happen. :(

It's the law of unintended consequences.

Any number of additional outcomes are possible.

You can see here, how sensitive some things are to
external conditions unrelated to the business.

https://blocksandfiles.com/2024/01/26/western-digitals-second-successive-growth-quarter-seagate-hamr-no-threat/

So while the HDD industry looks like a calm and stable
business, I'm not so sure what will happen in the
current climate. SSDs might win, simply by attrition.

Paul

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On Tue, 4/22/2025 1:58 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Paul wrote:

While SAS exists and could in principle be put in your
home computer, I've yet to read an account where someone
claims they got a good result by doing this.

The previous motherboard in my "server" had a single PCI-X slot (pre PCIe but wider and faster than PCI).ÿ I bought a cheapish 6 port SAS controller and used it with linux software RAID.

I won't even try to find whatever performance tests I did years ago, but I remember it favourably, and couldn't find a newer motherboard with PCI-X

I'm referring to the people who took the "SATA compatibility"
at face value, and they were attempting to run a SAS drive
off a SATA port. The transfer rate did not seem to be correct,
or the performance level varied while the device was running.
I certainly was not interested in testing something like this :-)
Some hair balls are best left, right where they are.

I could juggle running chain saws as a hobby... but I don't.

One hard drive that was recently retired, I opened it up.
It was a 0.8" high Seagate. It had no plastic landing ramp.
It had a patterned landing area near the hub, for the heads.
You never really know what is inside those things, until
you open them up and look.

I had some 0.8" high drives at 500GB capacity, and those
had lower-than-normal read/write in the second half of the
disk. I didn't know what was going on. At some point, I offloaded
the drive content, and re-wrote it from end to end (zeroed or
whatever). Right after that, I tested, and the performance
curve was back to normal. I put the content back on it.

You always have to evaluate what you bought, a little bit, to
better understand the company making the item. And whether
they have your best interests at heart.

Never assume anything.

Paul

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On Tue, 22 Apr 2025 05:47:12 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 4/22/2025 1:58 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Paul wrote:

While SAS exists and could in principle be put in your
home computer, I've yet to read an account where someone
claims they got a good result by doing this.

The previous motherboard in my "server" had a single PCI-X slot (pre PCIe but wider and faster than PCI).ÿ I bought a cheapish 6 port SAS controller and used it with linux software RAID.

I won't even try to find whatever performance tests I did years ago, but I remember it favourably, and couldn't find a newer motherboard with PCI-X

I'm referring to the people who took the "SATA compatibility"
at face value, and they were attempting to run a SAS drive
off a SATA port.

To the best of my knowledge, you can't run a SAS drive on a SATA port,
but you can run a SATA drive on a SAS port.

The transfer rate did not seem to be correct,
or the performance level varied while the device was running.

That sounds like a basic misunderstanding of the technology.

SAS controller --> SATA drive = yes
SATA controller --> SAS drive = no


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On Tue, 4/22/2025 11:37 AM, Char Jackson wrote:

On Tue, 22 Apr 2025 05:47:12 -0400, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 4/22/2025 1:58 AM, Andy Burns wrote:

Paul wrote:

While SAS exists and could in principle be put in your
home computer, I've yet to read an account where someone
claims they got a good result by doing this.

The previous motherboard in my "server" had a single PCI-X slot (pre PCIe but wider and faster than PCI).ÿ I bought a cheapish 6 port SAS controller and used it with linux software RAID.

I won't even try to find whatever performance tests I did years ago, but I remember it favourably, and couldn't find a newer motherboard with PCI-X

I'm referring to the people who took the "SATA compatibility"
at face value, and they were attempting to run a SAS drive
off a SATA port.

To the best of my knowledge, you can't run a SAS drive on a SATA port,
but you can run a SATA drive on a SAS port.

The transfer rate did not seem to be correct,
or the performance level varied while the device was running.

That sounds like a basic misunderstanding of the technology.

SAS controller --> SATA drive = yes
SATA controller --> SAS drive = no

The only reason I was reading the reviewers comments in this
case, this was back around the time Newegg started stocking
disk types that weren't appropriate for home computer users,
and without any warnings in the adverts. Then, apparently there was a high
rate of return on the things people were buying.

There seem to be a few more warnings today.

SATA 512e Home user
SATA 512n Home user
SATA 4Kn Will work at home, not recommended (tool situation not good)

SAS Not a drive you'd want at home particularly.
Many high performance drives, the self test "chirp" will drive you nuts.
A certain number of items are meant for locked server rooms. Diff.SCSI Not a drive you'd want at home particularly.

I worked on a couple drives at work, one in one of our remote
labs, those were differential and the cables were 25 feet long
(and, all over the floor). But that was a long time ago, and
data rates were pretty low.

And the SCSI I've had in the house here, weren't really champs
either. Nothing really high rate. All I've got left in
SCSI here, is an async SCSI cable for the old scanner.

All my recent experience here is with SATA. And no 4Kn either.
Mostly 512e, a couple 512n.

Paul

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In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 21/04/2025 6:55 am, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Sun, 20 Apr 2025 20:23:46 +0200, "Carlos
E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

isible with a filter.

The gyroscopic effect when removing one from a test cady is very
noticeable. Surprised me.

I've thought about this. With all the harddrives spinning all over the
world, and the difficulty of changing their orientation, because of the
gyroscopic effect, isn't that going to interfere with the rotation of
the earth. And that will make days longer, and thus years will also be
longer.

Ah!! Is that why, now-a-days, things seem to have shorter lives .... the

Yes, especially appliances.

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think
there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic
that confirm this.

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On Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:


[snip]

Ah!! Is that why, now-a-days, things seem to have shorter lives .... the
Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

IIRC longer days/years means Earth's orbit is becoming slower, which means farther from the sun. I do remember hearing of something called "global dimming".

--
"It is by the fortune of God that, in this country, we have three
benefits: freedom of speech, freedom of thought, and the wisdom never to
use either." [Mark Twain]

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On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think
there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic
that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse
to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so.
The centrifugal effect of its spin throws its mass around the equator outwards which in turn draws in mass from the poles, so its spin makes
it an 'oblate spheroid', a near sphere that bulges, has an increased
radius, in the equatorial plane and contracts, has a reduced radius, in
the polar plane, or put more simply its equatorial radius is somewhat
bigger than its polar radius.

This overall underlying shape is distorted daily by the moon's
gravitational pull interacting with the earth's spin. Most of us are
very familiar with the idea that the moon's gravity causes tidal bulges
in the ocean on opposite sides of the earth, both towards the moon and
away from it, but it also causes similar tidal bulges in the earth's
solid structure. Because the earth is spinning, and it takes a material
time for this tidal bulging to adjust, the bulge's axis is always
slightly ahead of the line connecting the centres of the earth and moon.
Hence the gravitational pull between the bulge and the moon is acting
to pull the bulge 'backwards' in relation to the earth's spin and the
moon 'forwards' in relation to its orbit. In other words, the earth's
rate of spin is being gradually slowed by this 'tidal friction', while
the moon's orbital speed is being gradually accelerated, which in turn increases the radius of its orbit, so the moon is gradually escaping the earth's gravity because it is slowly sucking the energy to do so out of
the earth's spin.

This applies equally to the moon also, which already tidal friction has
slowed in its spin to the point that its period of spin is now equal to
the period of its orbit, so it always shows almost the same face towards
the earth - 'almost' because it still rocks slightly back and forth
across the line of centres as its tidal bulge swings like a pendulum,
all that is left now of whatever rotational energy of spin that it had
when first the earth and moon became entrapped in their mutual gravity.
A long time into the future, there will come a time when the earth's
spin also will be slowed so much that it too will always show the same
face to the moon.

If my explanation above is not sufficiently clear, which it might not be
due to the lack of diagrams, then this might help, or else do a search
and choose a page or a video from a reputable source like a university:

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website: www.macfh.co.uk


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On 2025-04-23 00:00, Sam E wrote:

IIRC longer days/years means Earth's orbit is becoming slower, which means farther from the sun.

See my other post for an explanation of that wrt the moon orbiting the
earth, exactly the same principles apply to the earth orbiting the sun.

I do remember hearing of something called "global
dimming".

Totally different, atmospheric pollution blocking sunlight from reaching
the earth's surface.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website: www.macfh.co.uk


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:
On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly. So I'm not the only one who has noticed this. I think there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse
to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has noticed this.ÿÿ I think >>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>>> that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >>> to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a
consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula,
but not the definition.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Thu, 4/24/2025 9:48 PM, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Thu, 24 Apr 2025 22:37:00 +0200, "Carlos
E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 >>>>>> <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has noticed this.ÿÿ I think >>>>>> there were also articles in Scientific American and National Geographic >>>>>> that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without recourse >>>>> to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a
consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this not so. >>>> []
Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>>>

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula,
but not the definition.

With the increased popularity of SSDs, we could prevent the need to
change the forumula by banning HDDs. Something the United Nations
should consider.

Why not worry about something else for a while ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth's_magnetic_field

Stuff inside the Earth is moving. The masses involved
are much larger than your hard drive(s).

Paul

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On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000,
Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has noticed this.ÿÿ I
think
there were also articles in Scientific American and National
Geographic
that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without
recourse
to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a
consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this
not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN. >>>>

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change the formula,
but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox excluded,
I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full
MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so
the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-04-23 17:45, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN.

I think not RSN!

The timing of Easter has been a contentious issue throughout the history
of the Christian Faith, and, perhaps rather ironically to modern minds, unintentionally gave rise to modern science in the Enlightenment. Prof
Simon Schaffer, in the first episode "Let There Be Light" of the BBC
Series "Light Fantastic", beginning 29:47 mins in, enters the Basilica
Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri in Rome, where he demonstrates
how a hole in the wall of the church allows light to fall on a brass
strip in the floor, that was used to determine the timing of the
seasons, and thus allow the correct calculation of Easter.

AFAICR, the series was shown nearly 20 years ago so is unlikely ever to
be available even to UK citizens via iPlayer unless the BBC "in their
infinite wisdom" decide to repeat it. However, that actual clip is
available to all, though sadly in atrocious quality, in YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVTdfVWp5Rk

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website: www.macfh.co.uk


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On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000, >>>>>>>> Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has noticed this.ÿÿ I >>>>>>>> think
there were also articles in Scientific American and National
Geographic
that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without >>>>>>> recourse
to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as a >>>>>>> consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this >>>>>>> not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, >>>>>> RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change the
formula, but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox
excluded, I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON
following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full
MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so
the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

After a quick browse, from that site ....

Quote
One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to 56) to day- and-month (22 March to 25 April)
End Quote

Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The Moon drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer??

No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

:
On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:20:34 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025 20:15:04 +1000,=20 >>>>>>>> Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.=A0 So I'm not the only one who has noticed this.=

=A0=A0 I=20

think
there were also articles in Scientific American and National=20 >>>>>>>> Geographic
that confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I can without=20 >>>>>>> recourse
to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24 hours, and as=

a

consequence is not the perfect sphere that it would be were this=

=20

not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter,=

=20

RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change the=20
formula, but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions (Orthodox=20
excluded, I think) set Easter according to the first FULL MOON=20
following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still be Full=

=20

MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit changes, so=

=20

the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

After a quick browse, from that site ....
=20
Quote
One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to 56) to day-=

=20

and-month (22 March to 25 April)
End Quote
=20
Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The Moon=

=20

drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer??

=20
No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions.
=20

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me, I didn't start the religion.

--=20
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Dis (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2025-04-25 20:04, Java Jive wrote:

On 2025-04-23 17:45, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for Easter, RSN.

I think not RSN!

The timing of Easter has been a contentious issue throughout the history
of the Christian Faith, and, perhaps rather ironically to modern minds, unintentionally gave rise to modern science in the Enlightenment.ÿ Prof Simon Schaffer, in the first episode "Let There Be Light" of the BBC
Series "Light Fantastic", beginning 29:47 mins in, enters the Basilica
Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri in Rome, where he demonstrates
how a hole in the wall of the church allows light to fall on a brass
strip in the floor, that was used to determine the timing of the
seasons, and thus allow the correct calculation of Easter.

AFAICR, the series was shown nearly 20 years ago so is unlikely ever to
be available even to UK citizens via iPlayer unless the BBC "in their infinite wisdom" decide to repeat it.ÿ However, that actual clip is available to all, though sadly in atrocious quality, in YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVTdfVWp5Rk

Indeed, the quality is atrocious. The sound is fine, though.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2025-04-26 11:44, Daniel70 wrote:

On 26/04/2025 7:02 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:20:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025
20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has
noticed this.ÿÿ I think there were also articles in
Scientific American and National Geographic that
confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I
can without recourse to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24
hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere
that it would be were this not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https://
www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for
Easter, RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change
the formula, but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions
(Orthodox excluded, I think) set Easter according to the
first FULL MOON following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still
be Full MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit
changes, so the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

After a quick browse, from that site ....

Quote One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to
56) to day- and-month (22 March to 25 April) End Quote

Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The
Moon drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer??

No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions.

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox .ÿ But don't blame
me, I didn't start the religion.

Ah!! Right! Thank you.

I remember, long ago, I think that I was in high school, that the
magazine Scientific American, here translated as Investigaci¢n y Ciencia (Investigation and Science) carried an article, perhaps on the section Mathematical Games, which described an algorithm to calculate the date
of Easter Sunday for maybe two hundred years. I remember I used my programmable calculator (TI-57 or 58C) I had back then to run it.

It seemed magic.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

[snip]

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me,
I didn't start the religion.

The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I
don't know how that differs from the real full moon.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not
based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." [Carl
Sagan]

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2025-04-26 21:24, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

[snip]

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me,
I didn't start the religion.

The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I
don't know how that differs from the real full moon.

®An ecclesiastical full moon is formally the 14th day of the
ecclesiastical lunar month (an ecclesiastical moon) in an ecclesiastical
lunar calendar. The ecclesiastical lunar calendar spans the year with
lunar months of 30 and 29 days which are intended to approximate the
observed phases of the Moon.¯

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_full_moon

--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Sat, 4/26/2025 2:07 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-26 11:44, Daniel70 wrote:

On 26/04/2025 7:02 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:20:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025
20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has
noticed this.ÿÿ I think there were also articles in
Scientific American and National Geographic that
confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I
can without recourse to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24
hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere
that it would be were this not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https:// www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for >>>>>>>>>> Easter, RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change
the formula, but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions
(Orthodox excluded, I think) set Easter according to the
first FULL MOON following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still
be Full MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit
changes, so the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

After a quick browse, from that site ....

Quote One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to
56) to day- and-month (22 March to 25 April) End Quote

Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The
Moon drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer??

No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions.

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox .ÿ But don't blame
me, I didn't start the religion.

Ah!! Right! Thank you.

I remember, long ago, I think that I was in high school, that the magazine Scientific American, here translated as Investigaci¢n y Ciencia (Investigation and Science) carried an article, perhaps on the section Mathematical Games, which described an algorithm to calculate the date of Easter Sunday for maybe two hundred years. I remember I used my programmable calculator (TI-57 or 58C) I had back then to run it.

It seemed magic.

That's probably a Martin Gardner article.

Paul

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

:
On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 22:28:27 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-26 21:24, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
=20
[snip]
=20

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame m=

e,

I didn't start the religion.

=20
The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I
don't know how that differs from the real full moon.
=20

=20
=ABAn ecclesiastical full moon is formally the 14th day of the=20 ecclesiastical lunar month (an ecclesiastical moon) in an ecclesiastical=

=20

lunar calendar. The ecclesiastical lunar calendar spans the year with=20 lunar months of 30 and 29 days which are intended to approximate the=20 observed phases of the Moon.=BB
=20
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_full_moon
=20

Luckily it the moon cycle (mostly) reoccurs after 19 years, to give
an algorithm that's OK for a few thousand years. But there's drift as the
Moon Earth double planet system settles down. The Moon will fly off after
a bit, but not as dramatically as in MoonBase Alpha.

--=20
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: Dis (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2025-04-26 23:20, Paul wrote:

On Sat, 4/26/2025 2:07 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-26 11:44, Daniel70 wrote:

On 26/04/2025 7:02 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 20:20:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-25 15:32, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 9:37 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-25 12:14, Daniel70 wrote:

On 25/04/2025 6:37 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-24 12:56, Daniel70 wrote:

On 24/04/2025 2:45 am, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Wed, 23 Apr 2025 00:37:07 +0100 Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-22 21:52, micky wrote:

In alt.comp.os.windows-11, on Tue, 22 Apr 2025
20:15:04 +1000, Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Days and Years are actually getting longer?? ;-P

Yes, exactly.ÿ So I'm not the only one who has
noticed this.ÿÿ I think there were also articles in
Scientific American and National Geographic that
confirm this.

Let us explain this properly, or at least as best I
can without recourse to diagrams ...

The earth is spinning around its axis once every 24
hours, and as a consequence is not the perfect sphere
that it would be were this not so.

[]

Why the Moon is getting further away from Earth https:// www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12311119

So The Pope's minions will have to find a new formula for >>>>>>>>>>> Easter, RSN.

WHY??

All christian religions and judaism would have to change
the formula, but not the definition.

WHAT?? As I understand it, MOST Christian religions
(Orthodox excluded, I think) set Easter according to the
first FULL MOON following the (Northern) Spring Equinox.

If the Moon moves further away (or nearer), there will still
be Full MOONs .... so no change .... or no NEED for change.

But the full moon will happen on different days. The orbit
changes, so the formula changes.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_Easter#Algorithms>

After a quick browse, from that site ....

Quote One can easily see how conversion from day-of-March (22 to
56) to day- and-month (22 March to 25 April) End Quote

Where does the 34 days (56 - 22) come from?? Is this assuming The
Moon drifts away from Earth so its orbit takes longer??

No. The algorithm runs with the current orbit assumptions.

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox .ÿ But don't blame
me, I didn't start the religion.

Ah!! Right! Thank you.

I remember, long ago, I think that I was in high school, that the magazine Scientific American, here translated as Investigaci¢n y Ciencia (Investigation and Science) carried an article, perhaps on the section Mathematical Games, which described an algorithm to calculate the date of Easter Sunday for maybe two hundred years. I remember I used my programmable calculator (TI-57 or 58C) I had back then to run it.

It seemed magic.

That's probably a Martin Gardner article.

Probably, I remember that name.

I asked chatgpt.

You said:

Can you locate an article by Martin Gardner in Scientific American
magazine about calculation of easter date?

ChatGPT said:

Yes, Martin Gardner authored several articles in Scientific American
that delve into the calculation of Easter dates. One notable example is
his column titled "Mathematical Games," which appeared in the October
1969 issue of the magazine. In this piece, Gardner explored the
mathematical intricacies behind determining the date of Easter, shedding
light on the complex interplay between lunar cycles and the
ecclesiastical calendar.​
Academia+2SpringerLink+2Redbubble+2

For a comprehensive understanding of Gardner's work on this topic, you
might consider referring to "Fractal Music, Hypercards, and More:
Mathematical Recreations from Scientific American," a collection of his columns published in 1991. This compilation includes his writings from Scientific American between 1978 and 1979, offering a broader
perspective on his mathematical explorations, including those related to calendar calculations.​
Academia

Additionally, the article "A Quarter Century of Recreational
Mathematics" provides insights into Gardner's contributions to the field
and his approach to mathematical puzzles. This piece reflects on his
extensive work and its impact on the mathematical community.​
Scientific American

These resources should provide you with a deeper appreciation of Martin Gardner's exploration of Easter date calculations and his broader contributions to recreational mathematics.​


ChatGPT can make mistakes. Check important info.



Unfortunately, <https://www.academia.edu/9665113/Martin_Gardner_Fractal_Music_Hypercards_and_More_Mathematical_Recreations_from_Scientific_American_1991_?utm_source=chatgpt.com>
requires registration.

<https://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/observations/a-quarter-century-of-recreational-m-2010-05-26/?utm_source=chatgpt.com>
does not contain the word "easter"



--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

Reply-To: Anyone.but.me@this.time

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 00:16:42 +1000, Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 27/04/2025 8:36 pm, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 22:28:27 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-26 21:24, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

[snip]

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me, >>>>> I didn't start the religion.

The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I
don't know how that differs from the real full moon.

®An ecclesiastical full moon is formally the 14th day of the
ecclesiastical lunar month (an ecclesiastical moon) in an ecclesiastical >>> lunar calendar. The ecclesiastical lunar calendar spans the year with
lunar months of 30 and 29 days which are intended to approximate the
observed phases of the Moon.¯

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_full_moon

Luckily it the moon cycle (mostly) reoccurs after 19 years, to give
an algorithm that's OK for a few thousand years. But there's drift as the
Moon Earth double planet system settles down. The Moon will fly off after
a bit, but not as dramatically as in MoonBase Alpha.

OH!!! BUT I saw it on T.V.!! It HAS to occur!! ;-P

But didn't it occur in Space? In 1999? That was a hell of a long time
ago. Didn't she come back after a couple of years? I seem to remember
the finale being a great return of Luna into Earth orbit.

There was another serial documentary which had a huge Moonbase full
of pretty girls. That one happened in 1980.

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

J.




--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: To protect and to server (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

Reply-To: Anyone.but.me@this.time

On Sun, 27 Apr 2025 11:36:39 +0100, "Kerr-Mudd, John"
<admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 22:28:27 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-26 21:24, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

[snip]

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first
Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me, >> >> I didn't start the religion.

Did anyone? I mean any *one* person?

The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I
don't know how that differs from the real full moon.

One is real the other is not. "Eccesiastical" means "imaginary" and
"dictated by a committee of thousands that has been running since the
4th Century".

®An ecclesiastical full moon is formally the 14th day of the
ecclesiastical lunar month (an ecclesiastical moon) in an ecclesiastical
lunar calendar. The ecclesiastical lunar calendar spans the year with
lunar months of 30 and 29 days which are intended to approximate the
observed phases of the Moon.¯

Somebody's been using the Wicked-P.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_full_moon

See? There it is.

Luckily it the moon cycle (mostly) reoccurs after 19 years, to give
an algorithm that's OK for a few thousand years. But there's drift as the >Moon Earth double planet system settles down.

The Moon-Earth system is not, quite, a double planet - the centre of
the mutual orbit is inside the Earth, making the Moon technically a
satellite. Also, Luna is too small. Pluto-Charon comes closer but
still is not because some eejits decided that neither Pluto nor Charon
are planets. There may not be one of those in the Solar System, not
even teenty, little asteroidal ones.

Had Selene gathered more stuff during her wanderings through the
Great Disk at the beginning of the System, we could have ended up with
a double world. That might have caused either a huge surge in the
sciences of Ecology and Biology or millions of devastating wars.

Having seen a human, I'd guess the latter was more likely. :)

The Moon will fly off after
a bit, but not as dramatically as in MoonBase Alpha.

Nope. The Moon is receding due to change in angular momentum by tidal
effects at 1.5" or 3.8 cm per year. That means it will take 30,000 or
so years to recede by a kilometre. To recede to twice its current
distance will take about twelve milliards of years, 12,000,000,000 or
so. Sol isn't going to be a Main Sequence, White Moderately Giant star
for that long. Indeed, Sol might cook the Earth and the Moon sometime
between now and five milliards of years from now. Our lovely little
Sun which is so calm and nice and warming is going to bloat up to a
Red Giant, swallow Mercury and Venus and possibly swallow the Earth.
The gravitational field will change, too and the other planets, the
puffy ones and Pluto, could drift out a bit or a lot or even be lost.
Earth and the Moon might survive by drifting outwards, too. We'll just
have to wait to see.

Earth isn't ever going to lose its moon, not until we lose Earth,
too. The tidal drift is just too little.

We're probably not even going to run out of total Solar Eclipses any
time soon, which reminds me:

If Luna is between Earth and Sol that is a Solar Eclipse;
If Earth is between Luna and Sol that is a Lunar Eclipse;
If Sol is between Earth and Luna ....... that is a really *bad* day.

John's Law of Terrestrial Eclipses. :)

J.

Note: our Sol is white, not yellow, and she is much larger than 90% of
the stars in the Galaxy which makes her moderately Giant. Calling her
a "yellow dwarf" is simply *rude*. :)

Sol looks yellow because her light reaches us after running through a
blue fluid. Her peak radiation amplitude is in the bright green.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
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On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700. In the beginning when
they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed.
I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Maybe it was removed, something about too many people failing to
understand what "millions of years" means.

Another interesting bit was when an ape throws a bone into the sky and it seems to turn into a space station.

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

We provide a special tax-reducing savings account for very rich people.
-30% interest.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
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[snip]

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't
they?? ;-)

IIRC, Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

The novels contain a lot of stuff omitted from the movies. There's some disadvantage of being aliterate (knowing how to read but unwilling to do
it).

The books contain other stuff (that's where I found out about TMA-0 and TMA-2). There's also the (really complicated) instructions for the zero- gravity toilet.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

We provide a special tax-reducing savings account for very rich people.
-30% interest.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't
they?? ;-)

IIRC, Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

The urban legend is that it refers to 'IBM', shifted one letter. Don't
know if there's any truth in that.

[...]

We provide a special tax-reducing savings account for very rich people.
-30% interest.

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On 2025-04-29 19:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't
they?? ;-)

IIRC, Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

The urban legend is that it refers to 'IBM', shifted one letter. Don't know if there's any truth in that.

Arthur C. Clarke negated that, adamantly.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On 2025-04-28 22:22, John wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 00:16:42 +1000, Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 27/04/2025 8:36 pm, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

On Sat, 26 Apr 2025 22:28:27 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-04-26 21:24, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Fri, 25 Apr 2025 22:02:35 +0100, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

[snip]

And it varies by 34 days because Easter is declared to be the first >>>>>> Sunday after a Full Moon after the Spring Equinox . But don't blame me, >>>>>> I didn't start the religion.

The rule I heard (for Easter date) said "ecclesiastical full moon". I >>>>> don't know how that differs from the real full moon.

®An ecclesiastical full moon is formally the 14th day of the
ecclesiastical lunar month (an ecclesiastical moon) in an ecclesiastical >>>> lunar calendar. The ecclesiastical lunar calendar spans the year with
lunar months of 30 and 29 days which are intended to approximate the
observed phases of the Moon.¯

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_full_moon

Luckily it the moon cycle (mostly) reoccurs after 19 years, to give
an algorithm that's OK for a few thousand years. But there's drift as the >>> Moon Earth double planet system settles down. The Moon will fly off after >>> a bit, but not as dramatically as in MoonBase Alpha.

OH!!! BUT I saw it on T.V.!! It HAS to occur!! ;-P

But didn't it occur in Space? In 1999? That was a hell of a long time
ago. Didn't she come back after a couple of years? I seem to remember
the finale being a great return of Luna into Earth orbit.

Argh! Don't spoil it for me, I still have not seen it!

There was another serial documentary which had a huge Moonbase full
of pretty girls. That one happened in 1980.

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to Jupiter.

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

:-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Tue, 4/29/2025 1:21 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700. In the beginning when they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed. I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Maybe it was removed, something about too many people failing to
understand what "millions of years" means.

Another interesting bit was when an ape throws a bone into the sky and it seems to turn into a space station.

The movie has likely been re-cut or re-packaged
a number of times since original filming.

"The film was re-released in 1974, 1977, 1980 and 1993.
In 2001, a restoration of the 70 mm version was screened..."

The framing and what is in the 70mm version versus the 35mm
version, would be different. As would the TV cropping
versus what is seen in a movie theater. Maybe you've seen
other wide screen productions, where the movie is ruined
by the TV cropping, cutting all the detail off the sides.

Paul


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On 29 Apr 2025 17:21:55 GMT, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700.

Kudos to you! I barely remember what I was doing in 1800, let alone
1700.

In the beginning when
they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed. >I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Maybe it was removed, something about too many people failing to
understand what "millions of years" means.

Another interesting bit was when an ape throws a bone into the sky and it >seems to turn into a space station.

That reminds me of the movie* where a Coke bottle falls from the sky and becomes a treasured object among the primitive people who found it.

*The Gods Must Be Crazy, 1980


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Reply-To: Anyone.but.me@this.time

On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 22:37:49 +1000, Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 29/04/2025 6:22 am, John wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 00:16:42 +1000, Daniel70
<daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 27/04/2025 8:36 pm, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:

<Snip>

Luckily it the moon cycle (mostly) reoccurs after 19 years, to give
an algorithm that's OK for a few thousand years. But there's drift as the >>>> Moon Earth double planet system settles down. The Moon will fly off after >>>> a bit, but not as dramatically as in MoonBase Alpha.

OH!!! BUT I saw it on T.V.!! It HAS to occur!! ;-P

But didn't it occur in Space? In 1999? That was a hell of a long time
ago. Didn't she come back after a couple of years? I seem to remember
the finale being a great return of Luna into Earth orbit.

There was another serial documentary which had a huge Moonbase full
of pretty girls. That one happened in 1980.

That is, the *actions* and *stories* happened in 1980, according to
the introduction, the actual movies were made in about 1969 by the "Thunderbirds" team.

And those Moonbase girls were amazingly gorgeous. A few of the males
were finely built, too.

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

Or maybe Saturn?

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

"last thirty-odd years"?? How about 55-odd years .... for "2001:A Space >Odyssey" ... for which I paid AU$75 for a (used/rental) Beta tape in
1981-2 .... and then brought a DVD of somewhere along the line.

55 years?

Oh. Yes. I first saw "2001" in Stirling University's Student Union
way back in the early 1970's. They were probably still landing Humans
on the rock when I first watched it and the possibility of real, live
Moonbases was still very real.

"2001" was, at the time, fucking *amazing*!

It is still spectacular, even considering the advances in special
effects over the last half of a century.

Strangely, I thought the others were pretty poor in comparison. Even
the books were tedious.

It's rather like the "Rama" series. The first one was brilliant, the
rest were boring and not interesting.

What was the topic of this thread?

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/?ref_=fn_all_ttl_1

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't
they?? ;-)

Yep. It's because Hal (Harold) was Art's favourite uncle and the
writer wanted the gentleman to be immortalised in his novelisation. It
was also the name of one of Art's sea turtles which he kept while
living a little south of India - the turtle of course being named in
honour of the uncle. "South of India" being either Sri Lanka or
Ceylon, I can't remember which.

J.

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Reply-To: Anyone.but.me@this.time

On 29 Apr 2025 17:21:55 GMT, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700. In the beginning when >they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed. >I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Maybe it was removed, something about too many people failing to
understand what "millions of years" means.

Didn't the introductory bit have a "millions of years ago, somewhere
in Kenya" flag on it? I seem to remember that that was how *I* knew
that those weren't contemporary New Yorkers.

Though the "millions" was a little iffy as those monkeys looked a
little too human to be pre-human. They looked very much like furries.
Or ball-players before their morning's shaving.

It would have been interesting had the company hired some Bonobos for
that scene. Or, since it was Kunrick and he was a stickler for
authenticity, maybe they could have Time Travelled and brought in some Habilises? Or used Members of England's Parliament, which are just
about the same thing only less evolved?

Another interesting bit was when an ape throws a bone into the sky and it >seems to turn into a space station.

A hint that *Time* in vast chunks had just passed and that "Things
Have Changed A Bit Since We Last Saw Our Heroes".

They used to do it in movies with whirling clocks and falling
calendar pages, or, in the case of "The Time Machine", with a sky full
of a circling Sun.

The Bone-to-spaceship morphing was cool. The girly waitressing in the
Shuttle was also cool. Even knowing how they did it, it is still a
brilliant piece of cinematography to watch.

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

I meant "in the last few years since Moonbase Alpha ran away. Of
course we've had others well before that. Many, many others.

Well ... *we* haven't, unless you count six temporary camping sites
and a couple of caravans going around and around, but theoretical
alternative History "we's" have had.

Hell, even the Germans have had Moonbases since 1940-something. The
"Iron Sky" documentary tells us about those. And "ID-5 : The Return Of
The Evil Ones" shows us a lovely little Moonbase with a Reaaly Big
Gun. [Does anyone have a copy of the first three movies? "ID-1" to
"ID-3"? I can't find any.]

Can you tell that I don't get out enough?

J.


Question: if alternative realities are real, as in the Multiverse
Theories, are all of those other "me's" legally me? Does that mean I
need to wait for all of the wives to die before I can remarry? Am I
committing polygamy if I don't? Can I raid their bank accounts and
fridges? Can I shoot people here and claim that, statistically and
numerically, no one died because millions and millions and
quadrilliards of him are still alive so the dead one is just a tiny,
little blip and of no consequence? Has anyone ever tried that one? Is
this Off Topic? :)



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On Wed, 4/30/2025 10:32 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 30/04/2025 3:21 am, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

ÿ And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700. In the beginning when
they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed.
I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

And remember, it's not Transformers. There are no explosions and car chases.

Paul


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:
On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 19:24:21 +1000
Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 30/04/2025 5:09 am, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-04-29 19:48, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't >>>> they?? ;-)

IIRC, Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

The urban legend is that it refers to 'IBM', shifted one letter. Don't
know if there's any truth in that.

Arthur C. Clarke negated that, adamantly.

Oh, you Spoil Sport, Carlos!!

And, Frank, I thought the one letter shifting was to indicate HAL was (atleast) one better/before than IBM!! ;-)

As we're digging up old letter shifts: VMS->WNT


--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

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On 29 Apr 2025 17:48:43 GMT, Frank Slootweg wrote:

Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

And everyone knows why the Computer in "2001" was called "HAL" don't
they?? ;-)

IIRC, Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic computer.

The urban legend is that it refers to 'IBM', shifted one letter. Don't
know if there's any truth in that.

I heard that one, and that it's not true, before hearing the other.

[snip]

BTW, my automatically-chosen "quote of the day" is from the movie. The
last thing Dave says before entering TMA-2.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My God, it's full of stars!"

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On 29 Apr 2025 17:21:55 GMT, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700.

Strange mistake. As you may have figured out, it was 1970.

In the beginning when
they showed a bunch of apes grunting (before the appearance of TMA-0),
there was a caption saying "our forefathers" and several people laughed.
I've seen the movie a couple of dozen times since then and never noticed
the caption.

Maybe it was removed, something about too many people failing to
understand what "millions of years" means.

Another interesting bit was when an ape throws a bone into the sky and
it seems to turn into a space station.

We've had lots of Moonbases in the last thirty-odd years.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My God, it's full of stars!"

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Tue, 29 Apr 2025 15:26:35 -0400, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 4/29/2025 1:21 PM, Mark Lloyd wrote:

[snip]

The movie has likely been re-cut or re-packaged a number of times since original filming.

"The film was re-released in 1974, 1977, 1980 and 1993.
In 2001, a restoration of the 70 mm version was screened..."

The framing and what is in the 70mm version versus the 35mm version,
would be different. As would the TV cropping versus what is seen in a
movie theater. Maybe you've seen other wide screen productions, where
the movie is ruined by the TV cropping, cutting all the detail off the
sides.

Paul

I have seen it on TV. I know at least one I've seen was a widescreen DVD version.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My God, it's full of stars!"

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On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 13:10:52 -0400, Paul wrote:

[snip]

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up and to
the side.

I remember about that, now that you mentioned it. I remember going into a movie theater as a child, and my parents talking about not sitting too
close to the front.

And remember, it's not Transformers. There are no explosions and car
chases.

I remember a lot of breathing sounds, what you'd expect in a spacesuit.

Paul

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My God, it's full of stars!"

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On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 16:19:09 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

It would have been interesting had the company hired some Bonobos for
that scene. Or, since it was Kunrick and he was a stickler for
authenticity, maybe they could have Time Travelled and brought in some Habilises? Or used Members of England's Parliament, which are just about
the same thing only less evolved?

That reminds me of something I found on the internet that says the moon landing was faked. It was filmed by Stanley Kubrick. It then goes on to
say that he insisted on filming on location.

[snip]

Question: if alternative realities are real, as in the Multiverse
Theories, are all of those other "me's" legally me? Does that mean I
need to wait for all of the wives to die before I can remarry? Am I committing polygamy if I don't? Can I raid their bank accounts and
fridges? Can I shoot people here and claim that, statistically and numerically, no one died because millions and millions and quadrilliards
of him are still alive so the dead one is just a tiny, little blip and
of no consequence? Has anyone ever tried that one? Is this Off Topic? :)

I think about alternate realities a lot. Especially ones where my life has been better. However, I do realize that even if I could move over, it
would be wrong. That's somebody else's life.

BTW, I have a program on my computer that semi-randomly selects a
quotation every day to put in my sig. As an interesting coincidence, it selected one from 2001 today.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"My God, it's full of stars!"

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Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> wrote:

On 29 Apr 2025 17:21:55 GMT, Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 28 Apr 2025 21:22:49 +0100, John wrote:

[snip]

And there was TMA-1 in 2001 or a couple of years before that. There
was at least one Moonbase then, too, as well as a human-filled ship to
Jupiter.

I remember seeing that movie in a theater in 1700.

Kudos to you! I barely remember what I was doing in 1800, let alone
1700.

Same for me, but in 2000. :P
--
"To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen." --PhilipPians 4:20. Cleany humpy day!
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| |o o| |
\ _ /
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Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
....

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

Also, the annoying shaking picture. I remember with my local AMC Theatre
for Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull movie since we got there late
(no reserved seats). :(
--
"To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen." --PhilipPians 4:20. Cleany humpy day!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

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On Wed, 30 Apr 2025 22:21:57 -0000 (UTC), Ant wrote:

[snip]

Same for me, but in 2000. :P

OT: If you try to determine what century you're in by truncating* the last
2 digits of the year, you will be right 1% of the time. That's the year
(that is, 2000 is in the 20th century. 2001-2099 are not).

* even more OT: A truncheon is an edged weapon used for cutting people's
heads off.

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On Sat, 3 May 2025 22:39:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:

On 2/05/2025 2:46 am, Sam E wrote:

<Snip>

* even more OT: A truncheon is an edged weapon used for cutting
people's heads off.

REALLY?? I thought truncheons were the wood things the British Bobby's (police) carry to whack people with!

That was the first definition I heard (from my mother, who worked in a
library at the time). I looked it up just now, and found both definitions. Yours was listed first.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"The foolish renounce this world and pursue an imaginary world to come."
-- Giordano Bruno (1548-1600), Italian philosopher

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On 2025-05-01 00:24, Ant wrote:

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site >>> for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

Also, the annoying shaking picture. I remember with my local AMC Theatre
for Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull movie since we got there late
(no reserved seats). :(

Shaking? Either the film was badly damaged, or the projector machine was
not adjusted properly, and the projectionist was not checking the screen.

Baaad. Sloppy. Never happened to me.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

--- MBSE BBS v1.1.1 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Sun, 5/4/2025 9:23 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-05-01 00:24, Ant wrote:

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site
for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

Also, the annoying shaking picture. I remember with my local AMC Theatre
for Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull movie since we got there late
(no reserved seats). :(

Shaking? Either the film was badly damaged, or the projector machine was not adjusted properly, and the projectionist was not checking the screen.

Baaad. Sloppy. Never happened to me.

Things like that happen, in a "Ten-Plex". we have
some theaters here, with ten viewing rooms. This
means for low-grade schlock movies, you're sitting
in a relatively small ("narrow") viewing room. Maybe only
one room at the Ten-Plex is suited to "feature" items
or things like 70mm. The operator in those facilities,
back in the regular projection days, was run off his
feet, loading cans and queuing up stuff.

Modern theaters have replaced all that, with full
digital projection. And that has changed the failure
modes somewhat. You might find conventional
projectors at art theaters, where the film still
arrives in cans. Some of the movies, the content is
so poor, it's a good thing the digital representation
can be immediately deleted, after a limited run :-)

On some long running TV series, they were erasing the
storage used for the first season, and using it to
store a succeeding season, leading to complete loss
of any copies of the early versions. The advent of
film-less photography, encourages all sorts of
silly behavior.

Paul

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Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2025-05-01 00:24, Ant wrote:

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site
for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

Also, the annoying shaking picture. I remember with my local AMC Theatre for Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull movie since we got there late
(no reserved seats). :(

Shaking? Either the film was badly damaged, or the projector machine was
not adjusted properly, and the projectionist was not checking the screen.

Baaad. Sloppy. Never happened to me.

It was an old theater. The theatre finally got remodelled when Rogue One
came out. So much better! New seats, screens, audio, etc.
--
"If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." --James 1:5. LA's NBA teams suck. SW Day! May da 4th, 5th, & 6th B With U. :) BD, David Attenborough!
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
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On 2025-05-04 21:07, Paul wrote:

On Sun, 5/4/2025 9:23 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2025-05-01 00:24, Ant wrote:

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
...

Thank you for mentioning this .... as it made me go looking at the web-site
for a traditional Cinema .... and they're showing it on the Big Screen in June!! Beauty!!

https://www.astortheatre.net.au/sessions/2025-06-08-1530

As that is 70mm, try not to sit in the first row of the theater.
You'll need to sit in the back, to avoid neck damage looking up
and to the side.

Also, the annoying shaking picture. I remember with my local AMC Theatre >>> for Indiana Jones and The Crystal Skull movie since we got there late
(no reserved seats). :(

Shaking? Either the film was badly damaged, or the projector machine was not adjusted properly, and the projectionist was not checking the screen.

Baaad. Sloppy. Never happened to me.

Things like that happen, in a "Ten-Plex". we have
some theaters here, with ten viewing rooms. This
means for low-grade schlock movies, you're sitting
in a relatively small ("narrow") viewing room. Maybe only
one room at the Ten-Plex is suited to "feature" items
or things like 70mm. The operator in those facilities,
back in the regular projection days, was run off his
feet, loading cans and queuing up stuff.

Modern theaters have replaced all that, with full
digital projection. And that has changed the failure
modes somewhat. You might find conventional
projectors at art theaters, where the film still
arrives in cans. Some of the movies, the content is
so poor, it's a good thing the digital representation
can be immediately deleted, after a limited run :-)

On some long running TV series, they were erasing the
storage used for the first season, and using it to
store a succeeding season, leading to complete loss
of any copies of the early versions. The advent of
film-less photography, encourages all sorts of
silly behavior.

Buff.

I don't think we have any theatre in Spain using actual film, it is all digital. Maybe 16 mm still exists? I doubt it.

I was a projectionist for an amateur cinema club, in the 80's.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Tue, 5/6/2025 8:44 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 4/05/2025 5:18 am, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On Sat, 3 May 2025 22:39:42 +1000, Daniel70 wrote:

On 2/05/2025 2:46 am, Sam E wrote:

<Snip>

* even more OT: A truncheon is an edged weapon used for cutting
people's heads off.

REALLY?? I thought truncheons were the wood things the British Bobby's
(police) carry to whack people with!

That was the first definition I heard (from my mother, who worked in a
library at the time). I looked it up just now, and found both definitions. >> Yours was listed first.

Could it be 'the shape of the thing'?? Does a Coppers Truncheon have a similar shape to the Edged Weapon??

The design has changed over the years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baton_%28law_enforcement%29

Including how to use them. There is a paragraph in there, on
how to apply one, as a policeman.

A BlackJack will get more of a persons attention. A policeman would
not carry one, but a thug who wants your wallet would not mind
using one. A person properly trained, can knock you unconscious with
one well-directed blow. It doesn't even take a big swing. Just a "tap"
will do it, if you know the technique. You'll regain consciousness
maybe ten minutes later. Anyone unfamiliar with the thing, could fracture
your skull. Police batons in modern times, the mass is not optimized
for destruction. After all, the officers gun has to have some function.

The design of trauma is all too easy. A policeman killed someone here
with one punch. How ? His gloves happened to have Kevlar inserts
in the knuckles (that's like brass knuckles without brass metal).
The gloves were not approved for police usage. You can buy the gloves
on Ebay.

We've come a long way from the 2x4 :-)

Paul


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On 2025-05-15 13:41, knuttle wrote:

On 05/15/2025 7:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that an
image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other
important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File
contents AT THAT TIME.

While an image back up is good for a business, a data back up seems to
be a better idea for the individual.ÿÿ By doing a data back up, in the
worse case, the individual has a chance to review the software he has installed, and reinstall with a current version if he still needs that software.

This is the same as moving to a new house.ÿ Since everything in the old house has to be removed, the move gives you a chance to review
everything and throw out what you do not need any more.

Even for individuals. An image backup, done when the computer is stable
and clean, is very fast to restore. The strategy can be to complement
with incremental file backups in between them.



--
Cheers, Carlos.

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On Thu, 5/15/2025 7:41 AM, knuttle wrote:

On 05/15/2025 7:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that an image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File contents AT THAT TIME.

While an image back up is good for a business, a data back up seems to be a better idea for the individual.ÿÿ By doing a data back up, in the worse case, the individual has a chance to review the software he has installed, and reinstall with a current version if he still needs that software.

This is the same as moving to a new house.ÿ Since everything in the old house has to be removed, the move gives you a chance to review everything and throw out what you do not need any more.

Image files can be mounted, as if they are partitions.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/jj8zH4xm/backup-images-can-be-mounted-for-random-access.gif

In the example, C: was backed up via Macrium imaging,
that makes the MRIMG file, then you can select "Mount"
for the MRIMG and assign it a drive letter for temporary
read access (as K: ). If I needed to get a copy of files out
of my Downloads folder on K: , it takes no time at all
and does not require a "Restore".

Ghost may have had this first. Acronis has it. And so on.
The only one that does not make a point of pointing this
out, is the Windows 7 Backup provided by Microsoft. You can
do it, but the details are up to you to figure out. Maybe it
would work on Win11 Pro, with the right options enabled
in Windows Features (depends on whether files have
extension .vhd or .vhdx as to what to do).

*******

You can also mount a partition which exists inside a disk dump .img file.
That can be done with a loopback mount with offset, in Linux. On the Windows side, you can gain access like that via 7ZIP. 7ZIP makes the partitions visible.
Depending on version that can work in a pretty slick fashion.

Paul

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Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that an
image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other
important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File
contents AT THAT TIME.

Not every single user's system/device has everything on the main disk.
- believing that every main disk holds everything(os/data/etc.) or that
one's own device is like everyone else is too narrow, akin to tunnel vision.

As noted earlier...image backups are a good idea but not necessarily all-inclusive.


--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

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In alt.comp.os.windows-10 Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 15/05/2025 9:41 pm, knuttle wrote:

On 05/15/2025 7:33 AM, Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that an >>> image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other
important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File
contents AT THAT TIME.

While an image back up is good for a business, a data back up seems to
be a better idea for the individual.ÿÿ By doing a data back up, in the worse case, the individual has a chance to review the software he has installed, and reinstall with a current version if he still needs that software.

.... which is, sort of, why I had my old Win7 Laptop set up the way I did.

C:\ Drive was for Win7 System stuff.
D:\ Drive was for executables *I* installed (Browser, LOffice, etc)
E:\ Drive was for Data (e-mail, Letters, Games, etc)

But so many programs wanted to go where THEY wanted to go, not where I wanted!!

Yeah, annoying specially when they use shared files. I gave up and just install softwares into C:\winstuff\programname if they let me. Also,
easier todo back ups and restores. All my data like works, medias, etc.
are on another drive.
--
"And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your strength". --Deuteronomy 6:5. BUSY weekdays w. updates, spams, appts., works, etc.
Note: A fixed width font (Courier, Monospace, etc.) is required to see this signature correctly.
/\___/\ Ant(Dude) @ http://aqfl.net & http://antfarm.home.dhs.org.
/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
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Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> wrote:

On 16/05/2025 4:27 am, ...winston wrote:

Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that an >>> image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other
important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File
contents AT THAT TIME.

Not every single user's system/device has everything on the main disk.

In that case, 'they' shouldn't be talking about DISK (Main or Otherwise)
but DISKS!!

Well, even for single disk systems, Winston's point still holds,
because that single disk can have multiple (user) *partitions* and most
image backup is partition-based, not diskdrive-based.

So one might have a disk with muliple partitions, but only make image
backup of the C: partition, not D:, etc.. And make file-level backup of
D:, etc..

So Winston's point was just a warning, that's all.

- believing that every main disk holds everything(os/data/etc.) or that one's own device is like everyone else is too narrow, akin to tunnel vision.

As noted earlier...image backups are a good idea but not necessarily all-inclusive.

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Daniel70 wrote:

On 16/05/2025 4:27 am, ...winston wrote:

Daniel70 wrote:

On 22/04/2025 1:28 am, ...winston wrote:

<Snip>

W/R Old computer
ÿÿ- image backups are a good idea. Also necessary to consider that
an image backup may not have all desired/harvest-able data and other
important files(program installers, music, photos)

Why NOT?? Surely an Image Back-up is an 'image' of the Drives File
contents AT THAT TIME.

Not every single user's system/device has everything on the main disk.

In that case, 'they' shouldn't be talking about DISK (Main or Otherwise)
but DISKS!!

Who is 'they'?

The original post, never clarified the number of disks or partitions on
the number of disks.
The original post never clearly clarified the type of content and the
source type(disk, disks, SDXC card) stored(image, backup data) on the
backup disk
Subsequent posts alluded to multiple driver letters yet never clarifying partitions or other disks.

Thus, until clarification...it remains premature to assume that all
content is on a one single 'disk'.

- believing that every main disk holds everything(os/data/etc.) or
that one's own device is like everyone else is too narrow, akin to
tunnel vision.

As noted earlier...image backups are a good idea but not necessarily
all-inclusive.

--
....w¡ñ§±¤ñ

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