I have a computer with 2 fans , one for the processor and one for the PSU. Occasionally I get noises and there are 2 kinds : one is a squeaky noise and the other a grinding noise. The squeaky noise sometimes appears every now and again and eventually becomes continuous. The grinding noise appears out of
the blue and is continuous right from the start. The 2 kinds of noises never happen at the same time.

The interesting thing is that when either noise happens and I start some demanding computation running (one which occupies around 100% of CPU time of one of the two cores) then after about 20-30 minutes , whichever noise was happening stops and does not return for as long as the computation is
running. I can only hear a very soft whirring sound then. When the
computation stops , the noises may not appear for some hours or days but eventually return. Normally the computer does not run anything demanding and the cores work close to 0%.

What I mentioned is the only patterns I have been able to notice related to
the noises.

There are several questions :

1) What causes the noises ? I can't think of any other source apart from the fan(s) but which is the mechanism which causes these symptoms ? In particular that the noises go away when one or both cores work hard but otherwise disappear. Putting the cores to extra work , I assume makes both fans run faster but which mechanical reason would cause slower rotation to produce noises which go away with faster rotation ?

2) Is there a way (BIOS or something) to make the fans run faster without giving extra computation to the cores ?

3) Is there a way to find out which fan causes the noise ? It could be that
one fan does one kind of noise and the other fan the other kind of noise. I opened the case once when I could hear the grinding noise but I couldn't tell which of the 2 fans was the cause. Is there a way (like some appropriate hardware) to make the fans work without powering up the computer ? The PSU is hermetically sealed within the PSU enclosure but the processor fan is
separate and there should be a way to connect it to something to make it rotate.

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On 5/13/2023 7:49 AM, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

I have a computer with 2 fans , one for the processor and one for the PSU. Occasionally I get noises and there are 2 kinds : one is a squeaky noise and the other a grinding noise. The squeaky noise sometimes appears every now and again and eventually becomes continuous. The grinding noise appears out of the blue and is continuous right from the start. The 2 kinds of noises never happen at the same time.

The interesting thing is that when either noise happens and I start some demanding computation running (one which occupies around 100% of CPU time of one of the two cores) then after about 20-30 minutes , whichever noise was happening stops and does not return for as long as the computation is running. I can only hear a very soft whirring sound then. When the computation stops , the noises may not appear for some hours or days but eventually return. Normally the computer does not run anything demanding and the cores work close to 0%.

What I mentioned is the only patterns I have been able to notice related to the noises.

There are several questions :

1) What causes the noises ? I can't think of any other source apart from the fan(s) but which is the mechanism which causes these symptoms ? In particular that the noises go away when one or both cores work hard but otherwise disappear. Putting the cores to extra work , I assume makes both fans run faster but which mechanical reason would cause slower rotation to produce noises which go away with faster rotation ?

2) Is there a way (BIOS or something) to make the fans run faster without giving extra computation to the cores ?

3) Is there a way to find out which fan causes the noise ? It could be that one fan does one kind of noise and the other fan the other kind of noise. I opened the case once when I could hear the grinding noise but I couldn't tell which of the 2 fans was the cause. Is there a way (like some appropriate hardware) to make the fans work without powering up the computer ? The PSU is hermetically sealed within the PSU enclosure but the processor fan is separate and there should be a way to connect it to something to make it rotate.

1) When a bearing is worn, at low speed the fan can wobble and make a noise.
Speeding up the fan, may help it run true, for a bit. Some fans are spring-loaded,
and a spring helps "pre-load" the rotor, so it runs true for longer.

2) There are fan controls in the BIOS. You can set a fan for "No Control"
and it runs at 100% speed. On a 1200 RPM fan, this is an acceptable choice.
Some Dell computers however, they use high capacity fans, and when run
at 100%, they sound like a vacuum cleaner motor. 35CFM fans run flat-out
are OK, while 110CFM fans run that way, are too loud.

3) Vcore regulation can make "coil noise". On my current machine, I was hearing
a noise that sounded like a hard drive seek. However, when the hard drive was
replaced with an SSD, the noise was still present, and that's how I knew
I was hearing coil noise from VCore.

Fans can be run from 12VDC. You only need two electrical connections, to make
a fan that spins at 100% speed. I sometimes test 12V fans with a 9V battery (the fan might be rated at 110 ma or so, a 1 ampere fan might be too much
for a small 9V battery).

In this example, the picture of the cable is wrong, the table of values is correct.
Red should be the middle wire, and is +12V. Always check the hub label, for any hints about what you're dealing with.

https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/arduino/original/4X/6/1/2/612cffb8df33a95d9ef9dc9200779ec41e266c38.jpeg

In this example, the bottom-right picture is correct. Sometimes, the motherboard
manual has a diagram too, as a double-check. The "tab" on the fan connector,
is what provides keying, so the correct pins touch.

https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/58153iDEAF116614EE11FA/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999

Good fans have a service life of 50,000 hours.
They have different kinds of bearings -- sleeve bearings are the worst. Examples:

sleeve
ball bearing
SSO
FDB
ceramic

Fans can become noisy with little provocation. Take a quality
fan, give it a sharp shock (one good knock) on a table,
then reinstall, and you can be greeted with bearing noise.
Some fans actually get damaged in shipping. This is why, if
you buy two identical fans, and one fan makes more noise than the other,
it could be that one of the fans has received a shock that damaged
the bearing.

Fans do need to be replaced, at some point. On a much older computer,
the fans were all ball-bearing, and all of the fans in that PC needed
to be replaced, before the computer was "worn out". That's an extreme
example. Sometimes, only one fan needs replacement and the others are
fine. If the fans are the square ones, with the mounting holes, you
can buy a replacement and fit it yourself. Other frame-less fans,
it's harder to find a replacement article.

Paul

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
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On Sat, 13 May 2023 13:15:47 -0400
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

Thanks for all the detailed information.

[...]

Fans can be run from 12VDC. You only need two electrical connections, to make a fan that spins at 100% speed. I sometimes test 12V fans with a 9V battery (the fan might be rated at 110 ma or so, a 1 ampere fan might be too much
for a small 9V battery).

In this example, the picture of the cable is wrong, the table of values is correct.
Red should be the middle wire, and is +12V. Always check the hub label, for any
hints about what you're dealing with.

https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/arduino/original/4X/6/1/2/612cffb8df33a95d9ef9dc9200779ec41e266c38.jpeg

In this example, the bottom-right picture is correct. Sometimes, the motherboard
manual has a diagram too, as a double-check. The "tab" on the fan connector, is what provides keying, so the correct pins touch.

https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/58153iDEAF116614EE11FA/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999

Is there some gadget you can buy where you simply connect the wires of the
fan , put a battery in some compartment and the fan spins (ideally you
should be able to adjust the speed too) or do you have to construct one yourself using pictures like those you provided ?

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

[ Apologies if this post eventually appears in double ; originally I tried
to post through eternal-september and the post did not appear. ]

On Sat, 13 May 2023 13:15:47 -0400
Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

Thanks for all the detailed information.

[...]

Fans can be run from 12VDC. You only need two electrical connections, to make a fan that spins at 100% speed. I sometimes test 12V fans with a 9V battery (the fan might be rated at 110 ma or so, a 1 ampere fan might be too much
for a small 9V battery).

In this example, the picture of the cable is wrong, the table of values is correct.
Red should be the middle wire, and is +12V. Always check the hub label, for any
hints about what you're dealing with.

https://europe1.discourse-cdn.com/arduino/original/4X/6/1/2/612cffb8df33a95d9ef9dc9200779ec41e266c38.jpeg

In this example, the bottom-right picture is correct. Sometimes, the motherboard
manual has a diagram too, as a double-check. The "tab" on the fan connector, is what provides keying, so the correct pins touch.

https://www.dell.com/community/image/serverpage/image-id/58153iDEAF116614EE11FA/image-size/large?v=v2&px=999

Is there some gadget you can buy where you simply connect the wires of the
fan , put a battery in some compartment and the fan spins (ideally you
should be able to adjust the speed too) or do you have to construct one yourself using pictures like those you provided ?

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: To protect and to server (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 5/16/2023 4:36 AM, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

Is there some gadget you can buy where you simply connect the wires of the fan , put a battery in some compartment and the fan spins (ideally you
should be able to adjust the speed too) or do you have to construct one yourself using pictures like those you provided ?

The closest thing, is a fan adapter. You can either use one of these, as is,
or you can chop this to bits, for "parts".

https://www.performance-pcs.com/media/catalog/product/cache/a17cfde780b1af9e58d06cf1c44be8a3/t/m/tmpfc43.jpg

The fan end in that example, has exposed male pins.
When they're exposed like that (no plastic "box" around
the pins), you can fit a 3 pin (TX3) or a 4 pin (TX4)
fan onto the connector for test. On a four pin (PWM fan),
if the PWM pin on the end "floats" and is not electrically
connected, the fan runs at full speed. This is, in effect,
an "expected condition". They designed it to function correctly
when used this way, on purpose.

GND +12V RPM PWM This is an example of connecting a 4 pin
| | | | TX4 fan, to a TX3 male connector, which in
turn, is connected to a nine volt battery.
X X X
| |
BLK RED
| |
| |
0V 9V Nine volt battery clip

Example of battery clips, red is +9V, black is Ground. Since the battery
end is easily damaged, it's a good idea to buy a multi-pack of these,
for the lab.

https://www.amazon.ca/Battery-Connector-I-Type-Plastic-Housing/dp/B085X11D22

If you cut the two wire part off the first item (the TX3 male
keeping the red and black wire), then strip and join red to red
and black to black using the nine volt battery clip, that would
make a portable tester. You could fit a switch in series with
one of the leads, to make a "convenient" circuit of it.

Male TX3 connectors without the plastic box around them, are dangerous.
If the male TX3 is slapped against a conducting steel plate, the
short circuit can burn the tiny wires used and upset a power source
(such as a PC ATX supply). Yet, if you buy the boxed type of TX3 male,
only a three pin fan will fit and the four pin cannot be fitted to the
three pin fan. Only if a wiring assembly comes with a boxed three pin
and a boxed four pin, can you test both types (and, with "good safety").

No electrical standards, stick to proper wire coloring for any period
of time. The computer industry resorted to the "black wire fetish" and
this means users cannot visually identify when non-compatible things
are being connected together. On a Molex, +12V is yellow, GND is black.
On a TX3 assembly, +12V is red in color, GND is black. But with the
black wire fetish, you lose yet one more safety feature when experimenting
in your home lab.

Just be careful, OK ? :-)

Not too much can go wrong, with one of those tiny 9V batteries.
The same cannot be said for ATX supplies where you've been careless.
The male TX3 (with no shroud) on those adapters, is one of the few examples of an unsafe
adapter for sale. While you can get male TX3 connectors with a shroud
(shell) around the three male pins, that prevents 4 pin TX4 fans from
being fitted for test, and then you need an instance of both a boxed
three pin and a boxed four pin on your home-made adapter.

The tab on the connector, ensures the connector is rotated
the right way round. If it were not for the tab, two possible
orientations would exist. Fans seem to have inherent polarity
protection (I'm told by people on here their fan survived
being reverse-powered), but I don't really think of accidental
reversal as being a good thing.

Paul

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2023-05-13 13:49, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

I have a computer with 2 fans , one for the processor and one for the PSU. Occasionally I get noises and there are 2 kinds : one is a squeaky noise and the other a grinding noise. The squeaky noise sometimes appears every now and again and eventually becomes continuous. The grinding noise appears out of the blue and is continuous right from the start. The 2 kinds of noises never happen at the same time.

The interesting thing is that when either noise happens and I start some demanding computation running (one which occupies around 100% of CPU time of one of the two cores) then after about 20-30 minutes , whichever noise was happening stops and does not return for as long as the computation is running. I can only hear a very soft whirring sound then. When the computation stops , the noises may not appear for some hours or days but eventually return. Normally the computer does not run anything demanding and the cores work close to 0%.

What I mentioned is the only patterns I have been able to notice related to the noises.

There are several questions :

1) What causes the noises ? I can't think of any other source apart from the fan(s) but which is the mechanism which causes these symptoms ? In particular that the noises go away when one or both cores work hard but otherwise disappear. Putting the cores to extra work , I assume makes both fans run faster but which mechanical reason would cause slower rotation to produce noises which go away with faster rotation ?

For example, the whine going ultrasonic.

Yes, some fans can make more noise when going slow than going fast. I
notice that on certain car. The assumption is rust in the axle or a bit
of wear.

2) Is there a way (BIOS or something) to make the fans run faster without giving extra computation to the cores ?

3) Is there a way to find out which fan causes the noise ? It could be that one fan does one kind of noise and the other fan the other kind of noise. I opened the case once when I could hear the grinding noise but I couldn't tell which of the 2 fans was the cause.

Stop each one in turn with your finger. Or a painting brush, if you
don't want to risk your finger.

When you find it, the cure would be to oil the axle, or replacing the fan.


--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.


--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On Tue, 16 May 2023 20:13:46 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-05-13 13:49, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

I have a computer with 2 fans , one for the processor and one for the PSU. Occasionally I get noises and there are 2 kinds : one is a squeaky noise and
the other a grinding noise. The squeaky noise sometimes appears every now and
again and eventually becomes continuous. The grinding noise appears out of the blue and is continuous right from the start. The 2 kinds of noises never
happen at the same time.

[...]

3) Is there a way to find out which fan causes the noise ? It could be that one fan does one kind of noise and the other fan the other kind of noise. I opened the case once when I could hear the grinding noise but I couldn't tell
which of the 2 fans was the cause.

Stop each one in turn with your finger. Or a painting brush, if you
don't want to risk your finger.

As I said , "The PSU is hermetically sealed within the PSU enclosure" , I
doubt I could get to it. As for stopping the processor fan , my understanding is that if you do that , in a fraction of a second the processor will go up
in flames.

When you find it, the cure would be to oil the axle, or replacing the fan.

--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: A noiseless patient Spider (3:633/280.2@fidonet)

On 2023-05-17 11:35, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

On Tue, 16 May 2023 20:13:46 +0200
"Carlos E. R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2023-05-13 13:49, Spiros Bousbouras wrote:

I have a computer with 2 fans , one for the processor and one for the PSU. >>> Occasionally I get noises and there are 2 kinds : one is a squeaky noise and
the other a grinding noise. The squeaky noise sometimes appears every now and
again and eventually becomes continuous. The grinding noise appears out of >>> the blue and is continuous right from the start. The 2 kinds of noises never
happen at the same time.

[...]

3) Is there a way to find out which fan causes the noise ? It could be that >>> one fan does one kind of noise and the other fan the other kind of noise. I >>> opened the case once when I could hear the grinding noise but I couldn't tell
which of the 2 fans was the cause.

Stop each one in turn with your finger. Or a painting brush, if you
don't want to risk your finger.

As I said , "The PSU is hermetically sealed within the PSU enclosure" , I doubt I could get to it. As for stopping the processor fan , my understanding is that if you do that , in a fraction of a second the processor will go up in flames.

Nono. That was true for some AMD processor two decades ago.

Just let the blades rub with the hairs of a paintbrush, slowing it down
a bit, and you will notice if the noise changes significantly or not.

When you find it, the cure would be to oil the axle, or replacing the fan.

--
Cheers, Carlos.


--- MBSE BBS v1.0.8 (Linux-x86_64)
* Origin: ---:- FTN<->UseNet Gate -:--- (3:633/280.2@fidonet)